I often disagree with him, but have no problem with Bishop Tobin making himself a political playa. Why should Protestant evangelicals like Falwell, Roberston, Dobson, etc. and black men of the (alleged) cloth like Jackson and Sharpton have all the fun?
Speak a little louder, Jim Wallis.

My only problem with the Bishop's stance is that he's Catholic. And since the Catholic Church (especially here in New England) is like NAMBLA on steroids I don't really think they have much moral ground to stand on.

The Bishop's just doing his job. If more people listened to the Bishop and sincerely and personally respected life, then our elections and elected officials could stay focused on the pressing issues of the economy and national security.

As much as I oppose abortion, I think the responsibility to protect the unborn lies more with me as an individual and a father than it does with the President of the United States.

I respect Bishop Tobin's leadership as it concerns life, but I'll look to other sources regarding whom to chose for president.

If you believe that abortion is the taking of a human life, then you have a moral obligation to oppose abortion.

I agree with Rhody. Catholic Relief Services provided more aid to the poor than any other non-profit in the world. It is one of the few Christian denominations that is truly international. Yet for some reason Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts can make political pronouncements, but Catholic clergy can't? Even when the person they're talking about is a self-proclaimed Catholic?

Good for Tobin!

But Greg, thanks for your "my only problem is he's Catholic" display of religous prejudice.

If the Baptists had been molesting children, it would be the Baptists I didn't like.

Greg-Here are a bunch of Jewish sex offenders.
Now tell us you "don't like" Jews. LOL.
If you want a list of Baptist ministers I will give you that too. {Section deleted. This is an ugly but serious topic, and not a place to be mixing real actions with methaphors.}

Cases of Clergy Abuse
David Kaye-Rabbi. Featured on dateline NBC. sentenced to 7 years for molesting boy met on internet

Case of Shlomo Aviner (Rosh Yeshiva, Ateret Cohanim Yeshiva, Rabbi of Beit El, Israel)

Case of Rabbi Lewis Brenner (Convicted of child molestation. The original charges included 14 counts of sodomy, sexual abuse and endangering the welfare of a child. He agreed to plead guilty to one count of sodomy in the third degree, a Class E felony, in exchange for a sentence of five years' probation.)

Case of Rabbi Ephraim Bryks (Accusations about sexual inappropriate behavior with children started surfacing in the 1980's. Rabbi Bryks is currently a member of the Vaad Harabonim of Queens. The Vaad is a Rabbinical committee that makes important decisions within an orthodox community.)

Case of Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach (Accused of several cases of child molestation, and sexual assault of young women)

Case Rabbi Perry Ian Cohen - Montreal and Toronto Canada (Accused of sexual abuse of a seventeen year old. Fired for sexual impropriety with congregants)

Case of Rabbi Yitzchak Cohen (Accused of sexually harassing students at Bar-Ilan University)

Case of Rabbi Ephraim Goldberg - Boca Raton, Flordia (Pled guilty to one misdemeanor count of exposure of sexual organs in a washroom at a Palm Beach Mall.)

Case of Rabbi/Cantor Sidney Goldenberg (Convicted of molesting children. The first complaints came in 1971. He was finally convicted in 1997.)

Case of Cantor Joel Gordon (Convicted of having keeping a house of prostitution and involvement in a prostitution ring.)

Case of Rabbi Israel Grunwald (Accused of molesting a 15 year old on a 1995 plane flight from Australia to LA. The charge against him were dropped after agreeing to perform 500 hours of community service and to seek counseling. Grunwald was the chief rabbi of an Hungarian Hasidic congregation in Brooklyn, known as the Pupas).

Case of The State of Israel Vs. Sex Offender (Convicted of repeated rape and forced molestation of his graddaughter.)

Case of Yehudah Friedlander - Rabbi 's Assistant (Accused of molesting a 15 year old on a 1995 plane flight from Australia to LA. Friedlander was the assistant to the chief rabbi of an Hungarian Hasidic congregation in Brooklyn, known as the Pupas)

Case of the Rabbi at Hillel Torah, Chicago, IL (A teacher at the Chicago school was accused of child molestation. His name was not released. The school did everything correctly in attempting to keep the children safe once accusations were made.)

Case of Rabbi Solomon Hafner (Accused of sexually abusing a developmentally disabled boy)

Case of Rabbi (Alan J.) Shneur Horowitz (Convicted and sentenced to 10 - 20 years in prison for sodomizing a nine-year-old psychiatric patient. Allegedly, he has assaulted a string of children from California to Israel to New York in the past twenty years. Alan J. Horowitz is an Orthodox rabbi, magna cum laude, M.D., Ph.D. A graduate of Duke University, and was a writer for NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association).

Case of Jacob Frank and the Frankist Movement (Accused of cultic type practices and sexual offenses)

Case of Rabbi Israel Kestenbaum (Accused of child pornography on the internet)

Case of Rabbi Robert Kirschner (Accused of sexually exploited or harassing three congregants and a synagogue employee)

Case of Rabbi Ze'ev Kopolevitch (Convicted of molesting students at Rosh Yeshiva, Netiv Meir yeshiva high school)

Case of Rabbi Baruch Lanner (Convicted - child molestation.)

Case of Rabbi Jerrold Martin Levy (Convicted of two counts of soliciting sex through the Internet and two counts of child pornography. He was sentenced to six years and sex in prison. He was caught in the "Candyman" year-long sting operation by the US government.)

Case of Rabbi Pinchas Lew (Accused of exposed himself to a woman.)

Case of Rabbi/Psychologist Mordecai Magencey (lost his license to practice in the State of Missouri because of his sexual misconduct with his patients.)

Case of Rabbi Richard Marcovitz (Convicted of indecent or lewd acts with a child, and sexual battery)

Case of Rabbi Juda Mintz (Convicted - internet sting on child pornography)

Rabbi Yona Metzger (Accused of sexually misconduct with four men)

Case of Rabbi Avrohom Mondrowitz (Accused of two counts of sex abuse with boys at a special education school in New York)

Case of Cantor Howard Nevison (Accused of molesting his nephew)

Case of Rabbi Michael Ozair (Accused of sexual molestation of a then-14-year-old girl)

Case of Cantor Stanley Rosenfeld (Convicted of molesting a 12-year-old boy he was tutoring.)

Case of Rabbi Charles Shalman (Accused of sexual misconduct toward female congregational members)

Case of Cantor Robert Shapiro (Accused of three counts of rape and four counts of indecent assault and battery to a mentally retarded woman)

Case of Cantor Michael Segelstein (Accused of attempted rape; Chabad - Las Vegas, Nevada)

Case of Rabbi Ze'ev Sultanovitch (Accused of sexually molesting a number of adult yeshiva students at the Merkaz Harav Yeshiva)

Case of Rabbi Melvin Teitelbaum (Accused of three counts of sex crimes against two boys under the age of 14, and one count of assault with intent to commit rape against one boy's mother. The charges were dropped for lack of evidenced)

Case of Rabbi Isadore Trachtman (Accused of cultic type practices and sexual offenses)

Case of Rabbi Hirsch Travis (Rabbi in Monsey, accused of posing as a Brooklyn doctor specializing in infertility problems, and allegedly sexually abusing and assaulting a patient.)

Case of Rabbi Matis Weinberg (Accused of cultic type practices and sexual offenses)

Case of Rabbi Yaakov Weiner (Accused of molesting boy at Camp Mogen Avraham, New York)

Case of Rabbi Don Well

Case of Cantor Phillip Wittlin (Convicted of molesting two girls)

Case of Rabbi Mordechai Yomtov (Convicted of sexual abuse and committing lewd acts against three boys)

Case of Rabbi Sheldon Zimmerman (Violated guidelines concerning "sexual ethics and sexual boundaries," )

Case of Rabbi Max Zucker (Accused by three women of improperly touching)

And Other Trusted Officals (Parents, Teachers, Camp Counselors, etc.)

Case of Arie Adler and Marisa Rimland, NY (Arie Adler was accused of molesting his daughter. Marisa Rimland murdered her daughter, and then committed suicide).

Case of Simcha Adler - Ohel Counselor, NY (Plea-bargained charges of sodomy, sexual abuse and two counts of endangering the welfare of a child down to attempted sodomy.)

Case of Eugene Loub Aronin - School Counselor, TX (Convicted in 1984 of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old boy)

Case of B'Nai Torah Congegation - Hillel Community Day School janitor, Boca Raton, FL (Accused of child molestation)

Case of Chaim Ciment (Accused and charged with first-degree sexual abuse, after allegations were made that he fondled a 17 year old girl in an elevator).

Case of James A. Cohen - Jewish Youth Group Leader (Convicted child molester, sentenced to 9 years for assaulting 4 boys)

Case of Larry Cohen - Soccer Coach, Lake Oswego, OR (Accused of molesting two individuals.)

Case of Lawrence Cohen - School Teacher, NJ (Convicted and sentenced to 10 years in federal prison for transmitting child pornography through his home computer).

Case of Phillip "Eli" Cohen, London, England (Accused of 13 charges of indecently assaulting a boy and four offences of indecently assaulting a girl)

Case of Stuart Cooperman, MD - Pediatrican, Merrick, New York (Accused of molesting six female patience).

Case of Delaware Family (Father accused of alleged child molestation)

Case of Mordechai (Morton) Ehrman - Simcha's Play Group, Brooklyn, NY (Accused of molesting dozens of students).

Case of Hbrandon Lee Flagner (Convicted of the kidnapping and aggravated murder of Tiffany Jennifer Papesh a 8-year-old girl. Flagner also claimed to have molested hundreds of girls during his life. While in prison, Flagner convert to Judaism by an Chasidic rabbi.)

Case of Arnold and Jesse Friedman (Capturing the Friedmans) (Convicted sex offender)

Case of Richard "Steve" Goldberg (Allegedly engaging in sex acts with several girls under 10 in California. He is on the FBI's ten most wanted fugitives list)

Case of Ross Goldstein (Convicting of sodomy in the first degree (three counts) and use of a child in a sexual performance. He was Sentenced to four concurrent indeterminated terms of 2 to 6 years imprisonment. Also see: Case of Arnold and Jesse Friedman)

Case of Several Child Sex Offenders in Har Nof 0 Jerusalem, Israel (Outlines several cases of alleged child sex offenders in the charedi town of Har Nof)

Case of David B. Harrington - School Principal / Big Brother, Rockville, MD (Convicted sex offender. Cases from the 1960's - 1980's.)

Case of State of Israel Vs. a Sex Offender (Convicted - 68 year old Israeli religious man pled guilty to repeated molestation of his granddaughter, was sentenced to 19 years in jail.

Case of Eric Hindin - Jewish Big Brother Volunteer, Newton, MA (Convicted of 35 counts of child rape. He was sentenced to 20-22 years in prison).

Case of Judge Ronald Kline, CA (Accused of possessing child pornography and for allegedly molesting a neighborhood boy 25 years ago).

Case of the Kosher Butcher in Chicago (Accused of molesting children for over 30 years)

Case of Lawrence Nevison - (Convicted of molesting his nephew. He is the brother of Cantor Howard Nevison)

Case of Stuart Nevison - (Convicted of molesting his cousin. He is the brother of Cantor Howard Nevison)

The Case of the Students of Ner Israel Yeshiva in the 1950's (Students accused of sexually molesting a younger student)

Case of the New York Society for the Deaf's Home (Accused of treating disabled patients ``like animals,'' beaten, drugged and robbed of their government checks).

Case of Ozzie Orbach, M.D. (Accused of molesting his daughter)

Case of the Rogers Park JCC, Chicago Illinois (This was the first case of alleged mass molestation recorded in Illinois to involve accusations of sexual abuse by a group of adults, consists of 246 allegations that staff members abused children enrolled at the center, according to the Illinois Department of children and Family Services).

Case of Jonathan Rosenthal - Community Police Liason, London, England (Acquitted of sexually assaulting a few children, after a jury used ancient common law right, deciding evidence wasn't strong enough.)

Case of Adam Theodore Rubin - Teacher, Coach and Girl Scout Coordinator (Accused of using a computer to solicit sex with a minor, possession of a controlled dangerous substance and possession of drug paraphernalia).

Case of Georges Schteinberg - Teacher, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil (Accused of possession of child pornography. Charges dropped when Schteinberg fled the country).

Case of Aryeh Scher - Israeli vice-consul, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil (Accused of possession of child pornography. Charges dropped when Scher fled the country).

Case of David Schwartz - Camp Counselor, Culver City, CA (Convicted and sentenced to one year in residential treatment and five years' probation for molesting a 4-year-old boy in his care at summer camp. A six-year prison sentence was suspended).

Case of Jerrold Schwartz - Scoutmaster, NY (Convicted and sentanced to 8 years in prison for multiple counts of sodomizing his former scout ).

Case of Irwin Silverman - Chief Counsel to U.S. secretary of interior 1933-53 (Accused of molesting his daughter Sue William Silverman. )

Case of Paul Slifer - Teacher (Accused of sexually assaulting a several students, and impersonating a doctor. )

Case of Ari Sorkin - Synagogue Youth Worker, Elkins Park, PA (Accused of molesting a 16 yr. old girl)

Case of Tel Aviv Arts School, Tel Aviv, Israel

Case of Dr. Saul and Judith Wasserman (Accused of molesting their daughter)

Case of David Douglas Webber - Mashgiach (Kashrut Supervisor), Canada (Convicted and sentenced to six years for possessing child pornography and molesting seven boys over the past eight years).

http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/clergyabuse

And Tom, do you know WHY those Jews were public? Because they didn't have Ole Pointy Hat in his fortress in Rome burying the evidence, buying off witnesses, and shuffling pedos.

Because they didn't have Ole Pointy Hat in his fortress in Rome burying the evidence, buying off witnesses, and shuffling pedos.

Posted by Greg at June 6, 2007 9:59 AM

XX
Here is some education on how the system works:
1. If someone claims to be a victim they go to the P-O-L-I-C-E.
2. From there it is up to the police, prosecutors and judges.
3. The alleged offender's employer, be it Textron, AOl, Gtech, Catholic Church or anyone else has NO SAY in the prosecution.
If these so-called victims or their parents never went to the P-O-L-I-C-E to start this process that is on them NOT the alleged offender's employer.

On average, it takes most victims of clergy sexual abuse 20 years to come forward with revelations that they were abused. By that time, in many states, the statute of limitation for crimes of abuse against a minor has run out.

In contrast, the Catholic Church was well aware that they had a problem within their ranks, and chose to perpetrate a cover up. Thousands of children were abused because of the failure of leadership by the institutional Church. It is ridiculous to revictimize the victims by claiming that it is their fault that this abuse was not stopped, when the Cardinals and Bishops who were well aware of it had the moral and legal obligation to do so.

Of course, abuse occurs in other faiths, and also occurs in secular organizations. That does not, however, reduce the culpability of the Catholic Church. Until they address their moral failure, I am hard pressed to accept their voice as moral on most issues.

And so the "hypocrisy herring" swam into the debate.

It's a convenient and time-tested rhetorical tactic. In this particular realm, it absolves those who oppose the Church's stance on any given topic from dealing seriously with said topic by enabling them to discount any Church position with which they disagree.

"How," they say, "can we support the Church's stance on, say, helping the poor, when they covered up the despicable actions of a few priests who sexually abused the innocent."

Apparently, an idea or moral position--no matter how correct in the abstract--simply cannot be good unless the proponent of the idea truly does live in a glass house.

All the while, they willfully ignore the fact that Pope John Paul did, in fact, apologize for the heinous crimes (and for others past misdeeds of the Church.)

On average, it takes most victims of clergy sexual abuse 20 years to come forward with revelations that they were abused.

I'm curious where this data comes from and what, specifically, it is measuring. It seems awfully convenient for those who would discredit the Church, because the vast bulk of abuse cases occurred before the eighties and then faded out. I'd suggest that an institutional problem was recognized and began to be addressed, well before the public spotlight began to shine. (There are, of course, specific examples of human fallibility throughout.)

But a statistic such as the "average of 20 years" thing could be a mechanism to declare that later instances just haven't come to light. One of the things I would look at, given a citation, is whether the researchers addressed the question of whether the wave of accusations didn't bring out more people sooner. One would think that it would.

Dear Justin,

I was an altar boy, 15 years, during the late seventies, early eighties. I know of at least 7 folks who were abused and have yet to come forward. They probably never will.

The problem here was not that the abuse happened. Those in power will always abuse when they can use silence as a weapon. It was the nonreaction of the Church that is at issue.

The joke was never stay long after Mass if the Priest had either been in Pittsfield or Saint Louis. Those were the "special" Parishes.

It should also be stated for the record that is never a fade out. Not in the Catholic Church, not in anybody's Church. Human beings will always fail by a certain percentage when up against certain temptations.

If it weren't bad enough that John Paul II canonized some of the worst and most anti-Semetic Saints possible; if it weren't bad enough that he, in an exercise of extreme ego, twisted the third Fatima miracle to be about himself; if it weren't bad enough that he tried to set science backwards, we will always have the mishandling of this situation to look upon with sadness.

The prevalence of child sexual abuse is far lower among Catholic priests than among other populations. In fact, it has lowered in the USA since the 1980s, as Justin pointed out. The previously higher prevalence coincided with the increased laxity with which seminaries and parishes treated openly homosexual seminarians and priests. The subsequent decrease in prevalence has followed the changes made and the affirmation of Catholic teachings on human sexuality.

So if you are going to criticize the Church due to the priest scandal (and parishners have not been quiet about this with their Bishops, I can assure you) consider the context and consider the improvements that have been made.

Then compare with other organizations and professions and reconsider the self-destructiveness in how the gay propagandists have used (abused) the sex scandal to attack the credibility of the organization that has done the most for the victims of HIV/AIDS.

But let's assume you believe the propaganda of the gay activists and of those who want to sideline the Catholic Bishops. Okay, but the Bishop in this case is merely reminding Guilliani, and fellow Catholics, and the rest of society, that there are actual teachings of the Church to which all who identify as Catholics are compelled to align themselves -- for their ownsakes as well as for their society's sake.

That's all the more powerful because of the sex scandal. Human beings are prone to misbehavior and yet Catholic teachings shed a bright and cleansing light on all of that. The Bishop spoke mainly for Catholics about a very public man who claims to be Catholic.

If a self-identified Catholic is a candidate for the highest office in the land and he or she misrepresents Catholic teachings -- either through his words or in his policy choices (and the reasoning on display) or in his example as public servant -- then what's his moral defence for studiously ignoring, and even directly contradicting, what he says he believes in?

He should 1) stop identifying as Catholic, or 2) continue to identify and to strive to be consistent with the teachings with which he identifies, or 3) explain how his religious identity is more "cultural" than religious and the teachings are not so important to him.

Guilliani does #3 while professing #2. Hence the apprpriateness of the very public correction by this Catholic bishop.

Chairm is right that the abuse rate amongs Catholic priests has been shown to be no highter than that of other clergy members. The reason priests get attention is for two reason.

First, unlike many other religions, it's still OK culturally in the United States to criticize and make fun of the Catholic Church.

The reality is that the US was an overwhelmingly Protestant country for most of its existence. It really wasn't that long ago that many people wouldn't consider voting for JFK because he was Catholic.

Second, the Catholic Church is centralized as opposed to decentralized. When a protestant clergyman commits an act, he just moves to another community and applies at a new church somewhere else. Catholic priests get re-assigned.

Let's not forget that during the 70's and 80's, psychologists were writing about how sexual offenders can be "rehabilitated". Many of the priest who were repeat sexual offenders had undergone "rehabilitation" in keeping with the prevailing psychobabble of the time.

[i]I'm curious where this data comes from and what, specifically, it is measuring. It seems awfully convenient for those who would discredit the Church, because the vast bulk of abuse cases occurred before the eighties and then faded out. [/i]

The data comes from the attorneys who have represented survivors of clergy sexual abuse. I know the next argument. "How can we trust them?!!" Let's recall that the Church itself has settled most of these cases, so it seems that data was good enough for them.

You do not know that the "vast bulk of the cases" were in the 1980's or before because most of those victims have not come forward yet. Statistically, it is more likely that a survivor from the 60's has come forward than a survivor from the 80's.

[i]I'd suggest that an institutional problem was recognized and began to be addressed, well before the public spotlight began to shine. (There are, of course, specific examples of human fallibility throughout.)[/i]

You can suggest it all you like. You are wrong. The institutional problem was ignored, as has been well documented, until 2002. Even now, the institutional problem is being ignored because the Bishops immediately walked back on zero tolerance. I suggest you look at the situation that Cardinal George faced in 2006 before you say that the hierarchical Church has this well in hand.

[i]But a statistic such as the "average of 20 years" thing could be a mechanism to declare that later instances just haven't come to light. One of the things I would look at, given a citation, is whether the researchers addressed the question of whether the wave of accusations didn't bring out more people sooner. One would think that it would.[/i]

The more publicity that is shed on a situation, the more likely a survivor is going to come forward. Nevertheless, there are multiple reasons why survivors don't come forward (not the least of which is they have a hard time facing the fact that they were a victim and they often internalize the guilt and shame, believing it was their fault). So while many victims did come forward after the crisis broke, that doesn't mean that all victims have.

All the while, they willfully ignore the fact that Pope John Paul did, in fact, apologize for the heinous crimes (and for others past misdeeds of the Church.)

Please. I am well aware of almost every utterance that Pope John Paul II gave with regards to the clergy sexual abuse crisis. His apology was one step. An important one, yes. But does not deny his, or the rest of the institutional hierarchy's culpability in ignoring and exacerbating a decades-long crime spree. And it does absolutely nothing to address the problem.

It has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of the past, Marc. It has to do with the hypocrisy of the present. Do not speak of helping the poor and the poor of spirit when you continuously deny justice to your own victims, and when you put roadblocks up to actually creating a safe parish environment. Then, perhaps, can I truly listen to the good works that I know the Catholic Church is capable of.

Add to the above Louis( eliezer ) Kestenbaum from williamsburg Brooklyn NY he is Accused of molesting a teenage girl.