August 12, 2007
An Archival Tete-a-Tete
In the comments to the previous post, Tom W provides a link to his Narragansett Times debate with Bob Walsh, which is still available on RI Policy Analysis as a PDF.
I believe those who write knowledgeable public documents about what is wrong with the Rhode Island public school system and educators should be able to back up their words and ideas by spending a week in various classrooms educating early childhood, primary and secondary students
Posted by: ken at August 13, 2007 12:21 AMYes, Ken, because analyzing public policy and instructing young children are practically the same skill...
Posted by: Justin Katz at August 13, 2007 6:23 AM>>I believe those who write knowledgeable public documents about what is wrong with the Rhode Island public school system and educators should be able to back up their words and ideas by spending a week in various classrooms educating early childhood, primary and secondary students
Yeah, and I believe that no teacher should be allowed to enter a classroom until they've worked, full time, at least ten consecutive years in private sector (12 month a year) jobs.
Posted by: Tom W at August 13, 2007 10:06 AM>Yeah, and I believe that no teacher should be allowed to enter a classroom until they've worked, >full time, at least ten consecutive years in private sector (12 month a year) jobs.
>Posted by Tom W at August 13, 2007 10:06 AM
Tom W, I not being an educator but having the good fortune to spend a great amount of volunteer time assisting educators in public school classrooms; there are the good, bad and ugly as in all of life. One test can not be applied to all just as you can not lump Early Childhood, Primary and Secondary educators together which most people do when they say “no teacher or all teachers”.
So Tom W, everyone is complaining about how soft Rhode Island educators have it; not working a “real job” and how much it is costing Rhode Island to educate Early Childhood, Primary and Secondary students.
Did you realize per State of Rhode Island Education Department and (UNFUNDED) “Federal legislation, the “No Child Left Behind” Act, mandates that all teachers of core academic subjects be “highly qualified” as defined by the law. To meet the federal definition of a “highly qualified” teacher you must:
*Hold a Bachelor’s Degree
*Hold full state certification
*Demonstrate subject matter competency in the core academic subject (s) by having a major or its equivalent or by passing a rigorous content knowledge test.
It is important to understand that by holding a Rhode Island teaching certificate does not necessarily mean that you have met the federal definition of a “highly qualified” teacher. This is especially true for educators securing certification by reciprocity. These educators may need to meet the Rhode Island testing requirement to meet the federal definition of a “highly qualified” teacher”.
An educator must also pay out of pocket cost to obtain a Masters Degree within five (5) years in his/hers specialty and be subject to written testing every 5 years unless he/she can prove in writing and certificates that they have completed additional training (some school systems not reimbursed) in subject matter and her/his field in order to stay certified to teach. See following link: link:http://www.ridoe.net/EducatorQuality/DOCS/iplans/docs/Qualifying%20Professional%20Development%20Activities%207-2004.pdf
And as stated above, if she/he can not pass all test (s), they are not qualified and must be fired.
A Texas education official publicly admitted to supplying tainted/faulty data and that data was verified faulty to enhance the creation of the “No Child Left Behind” which also was found to channel funds to educational book publishers who were like minded to certain associations. This was all published in the newspapers but government marched forward.
Now you are proposing as rightly you can, that as a condition of employment “I believe that no teacher should be allowed to enter a classroom until they've worked, >full time, at least ten consecutive years in private sector (12 month a year) jobs”
In a state that is ranked by AAA as the fourth (4) most expensive state for a family of four to take a vacation in; Rhode Island is the number one (1) state in USA for raising taxes 2006-2007; Rhode Island is the only state that has not fully addressed its budget deficit; Per the Tax Foundation of Washington, DC: http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/56.html
Rhode Island is ranked fifth highest (5) of fifty states where “all workers” declare their tax freedom day on 9 May 2007.
Rhode Island is ranked fourth (4) highest in tax burden of fifty states.
Rhode Island income tax rate is second (2) highest in nation.
Rhode Island is ranked fifty (50) out of fifty (50) states 2007 in business taxes climate.
Rhode Island property taxes are fifth (5) highest in nation.
Rhode Island, the size of some states one (1) school district, yet has forty (40) seats of government (state and cities/towns) and 38 separate education systems (state and cities/towns/districts).
Rhode Island has the worst bridges in the nation.
Rhode Island highways are in poor condition.
Rhode Island in 2004 was ranked number thirty-seven (37) in implicit tax rate 23.4% on the dollar and ranks number one (1) in lottery and video terminal gambling sales nation-wide of $1, 373.00 per person per year per population which is mostly poor-to-middle class, elderly and retired.
I thought this is why we burned the Gaspee!
I ask you, how much do you think your suggestion, if implemented, will cost Rhode Island tax payers as an added requirement to obtain and keep an educator teaching certificate in Rhode Island and how many teachers do you think will work in the State of Rhode Island with that added requirement and what do you do with the educators already in the system and social security requirements (a lot of teachers do not receive or pay into social security; private sector does)?
Mind you, at this point in time, most of the “baby boomer” educators are ready to retire. If the governor (when he took office budget deficit was $100 million) and public continue to use educators and unions as whipping posts for trying to change “public service” (break even) into a “business model” (for profit), it could force a mass exodus (some school districts could loose up to 100 educators) overwhelming the current retirement system and creating dire shortage of fully certified educators in the state of Rhode Island maybe causing some schools to shut down; busing to other schools/districts, over crowding of classes and schools, night sessions, additional family cost for private schools or loss of federal state education funding.
But then, Rhode Islanders love to work in a perfect storm because per projo.com (May 06, 2007), in all of 2005, the third (3) highest number of subprime loans/mortgages in the nation were written in the State of Rhode Island.
>>Tom W, I not being an educator but having the good fortune to spend a great amount of volunteer time assisting educators in public school classrooms; there are the good, bad and ugly as in all of life. One test can not be applied to all just as you can not lump Early Childhood, Primary and Secondary educators together which most people do when they say “no teacher or all teachers”.
The teachers unions demand that we dump all educators together, and distinguish them only by seniority. I believe that they should be treated as professionals, which accordingly also means that each should be evaluated and compensated based upon their individual merits and performance.
>>So Tom W, everyone is complaining about how soft Rhode Island educators have it; not working a “real job” and how much it is costing Rhode Island to educate Early Childhood, Primary and Secondary students. Did you realize per State of Rhode Island Education Department and (UNFUNDED) “Federal legislation, the “No Child Left Behind” Act, mandates that all teachers of core academic subjects be “highly qualified” as defined by the law. To meet the federal definition of a “highly qualified” teacher you must: *Hold a Bachelor’s Degree *Hold full state certification *Demonstrate subject matter competency in the core academic subject (s) by having a major or its equivalent or by passing a rigorous content knowledge test. It is important to understand that by holding a Rhode Island teaching certificate does not necessarily mean that you have met the federal definition of a “highly qualified” teacher. This is especially true for educators securing certification by reciprocity. These educators may need to meet the Rhode Island testing requirement to meet the federal definition of a “highly qualified” teacher”.
So what? This is true of any number of professions: medicine, law, engineering. Plumbers and electricians are certified by the state. As far as in NCLB, while acknowledging that I have no particular expertise in this subject, my understanding is that “highly qualified” is largely determined at the state level; if this is true, given the track record of RIDOE, I doubt that the hurdles are particularly rigorous.
An educator must also pay out of pocket cost to obtain a Masters Degree within five (5) years in his/hers specialty and be subject to written testing every 5 years unless he/she can prove in writing and certificates that they have completed additional training (some school systems not reimbursed) in subject matter and her/his field in order to stay certified to teach. See following link: link:http://www.ridoe.net/EducatorQuality/DOCS/iplans/docs/Qualifying%20Professional%20Development%20Activities%207-2004.pdf And as stated above, if she/he can not pass all test (s), they are not qualified and must be fired.
So? Doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. pay out of pocket to get the education that is a prerequisite to their licensing. So I'm not impressed that teachers are required to get a Masters degree, particularly when it is well established that education programs lack rigor. As for being fired, my understanding is that in Rhode Island waivers are nearly automatic, particularly in the Providence school system.
>>Now you are proposing as rightly you can, that as a condition of employment “I believe that no teacher should be allowed to enter a classroom until they've worked, >full time, at least ten consecutive years in private sector (12 month a year) jobs” In a state that is ranked by AAA as the fourth (4) most expensive state …
You missed the (somewhat) tongue-in-cheek nature of my post. In any event, your response overall actually illustrates my point. The cost of public education in the state and the consequent property taxes are a major reason that Rhode Island has a high cost of living. The citing of necessities to get Masters degrees and continuing education etc. illustrate the myopic and insular viewpoint that I've observed among public-school teachers over the years-I'm not saying that they're bad people, just people, and everything is relative-and they are subjective state they genuinely believe that their positions are demanding and that they work hard. I believe that it's fair to say that most entered the profession right out of college and have no nothing else. I suspect that if they were forced to spend a period of time in a private sector job that lasted 12 months a year, for which they were real consequences for nonperformance, we should not dangle a pension carrot at the end of a relatively short working life, etc., those folks would be in for a rude awakening.
>>I ask you, how much do you think your suggestion, if implemented, will cost Rhode Island tax payers as an added requirement to obtain and keep an educator teaching certificate in Rhode Island and how many teachers do you think will work in the State of Rhode Island with that added requirement and what do you do with the educators already in the system and social security requirements (a lot of teachers do not receive or pay into social security; private sector does)? Mind you, at this point in time, most of the “baby boomer” educators are ready to retire. If the governor (when he took office budget deficit was $100 million) and public continue to use educators and unions as whipping posts for trying to change “public service” (break even) into a “business model” (for profit), it could force a mass exodus (some school districts could loose up to 100 educators) overwhelming the current retirement system and creating dire shortage of fully certified educators in the state of Rhode Island maybe causing some schools to shut down; busing to other schools/districts, over crowding of classes and schools, night sessions, additional family cost for private schools or loss of federal state education funding.
I will not repeat the entirety of my prior responses over last few days to Mr. Walsh of NEARI that address this-they're right here on anchor rising and I suggest that you look at them. I don't think that we would have any trouble attracting highly qualified and motivated individuals via alternate certification and a higher salary than present coupled with a 401(k) with a competitive match in lieu of pension. As for Social Security I also addressed that; you are far better off without Social Security.
>I will not repeat the entirety of my prior responses over last few days to Mr. Walsh of NEARI that >address this-they're right here on anchor rising and I suggest that you look at them. I don't think >that we would have any trouble attracting highly qualified and motivated individuals via alternate >certification and a higher salary than present coupled with a 401(k) with a competitive match in >lieu of pension. As for Social Security I also addressed that; you are far better off without Social >Security.
Tom W you have pointed to problems in your published dissertation with Mr. Walsh of NEARI involving the current education system in State of Rhode Island and the 38 entities that comprise the Rhode Island Department of Education and Board of Regents, individual education systems of Rhode Island cities, towns, districts, educators and unions.
Tom W you also indicated additional requirements should be imposed on Rhode Island educators that “I believe that no teacher should be allowed to enter a classroom until they've worked, full time, at least ten consecutive years in private sector (12 month a year) jobs.”
Recently the U.S. Federal Education Department initiated the “No Child Left Behind” law which added additional validation requirements, procedures, education requirements, testing, retesting, standardization, certification, minimum curriculum requirements, metrics and documentation to the current statewide standards for principles, educators, individual schools and school systems.
As a taxpayer, if you have a better solution as you have indicated to the problem at hand, please enlighten me and the general public.
Some questions that come to my mind are:
What is your plan to implement change with alternate certification?
Do you have a model on paper?
What changes need to be made to state law and how long will it take?
What changes need to be made to federal law and how long will it take?
What affect will your changes have on Rhode Island property taxes?
How will core subject requirements be applied for working in a private business?
How will private business be rated to core subject requirements?
How will private job classification/positions be certified to educator core subjects?
What do we do with the current employees working in the education system?
How do we bring new people into the new system without disruption?
Must we run 2 personnel systems in tandem till all educators are out of the old system?
How will the retirement credit be transferred from 10 year private business to public retirement system? Will it be uniform across 39 cities and towns?
How will the 5-year State of Rhode Island certificate and degree requirements be handled while working in private sector to meet “No Child Left Behind” law?
Will offering higher wages to attract new highly qualified educators to the State of Rhode Island be offset by property tax savings from your plan and program? How much is projected savings?
How will your plan implement safeguards to current educators who are paying into “both parts” of social security?
How much additional management overhead and documentation will your plan require?
Can you provide documentation that your plan will show an increase in measurable student knowledge to state and federal standards across the local education systems of State of Rhode Island?
So basically, Ken, you don't dispute that what TomW proposes would be effective and preferable to our current system. You're just asking about cost and the logistics of implementation.
Posted by: SusanD at August 15, 2007 7:01 AM>>As a taxpayer, if you have a better solution as you have indicated to the problem at hand, please enlighten me and the general public. Some questions that come to my mind are:
What is your plan to implement change with alternate certification?
Identify high priority areas – e.g., science and math – and recruit those with masters and above in the relevant areas for those positions, allowing them into a classroom after a one-semester long series of course on the particularities of classroom instruction. Veterans would be given preference, particularly males, as some positive male role-modeling would go a long way in urban schools.
As to other subject areas, same drill, but not as the first priority.
>>Do you have a model on paper?
No.
What changes need to be made to state law and how long will it take?
The General Assembly could enact necessary legislation at any time. I’d start with repealing the statute that permits teachers’ collective bargaining / unionization; repealing tenure; the aforementioned alternate certification legislation and universal vouchers (just as the competition from Honda and Toyota to Detroit’s prior hegemony has forced major improvements in auto quality across the board, so to would increased competition for parental education dollars). Freezing the state pension system and converting to a 401k type plan would also be on the menu (for reasons discussed in prior posts).
>>What changes need to be made to federal law and how long will it take?
As to federal law, I haven’t a clue. But I’m sure that if Senators Reed and Whitehouse et. als. really care about the children, they could obtain the necessary legislation or waivers from existing legislation.
>>What affect will your changes have on Rhode Island property taxes?
Over time, competition – Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” - has a marvelous way of lowering costs while increasing quality.
>>How will core subject requirements be applied for working in a private business?
I’m not sure I understand your question, but … if we achieve world-class levels of reading and math skills, those graduating from high school will have the requisite FOUNDATION upon which to engage in “lifetime learning” and to thrive no matter their chosen occupation or employer’s needs.
>>How will private business be rated to core subject requirements?
Do you mean private schools?
>>How will private job classification/positions be certified to educator core subjects?
See prior response re: alternate certification. As for “educator core subjects” – if you’re referring to the pabulum dished out by colleges of education – numerous analyses have concluded that those programs are “BS” so we need not concern ourselves with them going forward.
>>What do we do with the current employees working in the education system?
Judge them on their individual performance. Then it is up to them – they sink or swim, just like everyone else.
>>How do we bring new people into the new system without disruption?
Businesses do this every day. What the current education regime NEEDS is a LOT of DISRUPTION!
>>Must we run 2 personnel systems in tandem till all educators are out of the old system?
No. See response to “current employees” above. One personnel system, scrapping most, if not all, of the current system.
>>How will the retirement credit be transferred from 10 year private business to public retirement system? Will it be uniform across 39 cities and towns?
With a 401k system there are “rollovers” available. For those in the current pension system, it should be frozen – if they have, e.g., 15 years of vested benefit, then they retain the already-earned benefit per the existing formula for 15 years of service, but they accrue no more “vesting.” Going forward it will be a 401k-like plan with a match comparable to private sector matches.
>>How will the 5-year State of Rhode Island certificate and degree requirements be handled while working in private sector to meet “No Child Left Behind” law?
There is likely room for the alternative certification in the existing legislation. If not, waivers.
>>Will offering higher wages to attract new highly qualified educators to the State of Rhode Island be offset by property tax savings from your plan and program? How much is projected savings?
A competitive salary and 401(k) and medical benefit will still cost less than the existing pensioned regime.
Your question also assumes that we are currently attracting “highly qualified educators.” The lackadaisical standards of education colleges coupled with contractual protections against termination and performance expectations means that – on average – our current crop of educators isn’t performing up to necessary levels. This is borne out by the sorry results being produced by RI’s public education system.
>>How will your plan implement safeguards to current educators who are paying into “both parts” of social security?
There is only one Social Security – some teachers are free of it, others aren’t. The only other difference is that self-employed persons pay “both halves” of the SS tax. I’m not sure what “safeguards” you are alluding to.
>>How much additional management overhead and documentation will your plan require?
Less than we have now!
>>Can you provide documentation that your plan will show an increase in measurable student knowledge to state and federal standards across the local education systems of State of Rhode Island?
No, other than inferentially. But that's more than enough, since the present ssytem is broken and irreparable.
Over time competition inevitably improves quality and lowers costs – think of package delivery if we still had to rely on the USPS without UPS and FedEx. We also know that the current system is dysfunctional – as government bureaucracies that are insulated from competition must inevitably be (think FEMA and Hurricane Katrina or the Registry of Motor Vehicles). Inflation-adjusted per pupil expenditures have more than doubled since the 1960’s, only to render declining educational achievement. Will the new system encounter unforeseen problems and require changes as we go along? Absolutely! But the very nature of it means that change can and will occur, unlike the current system in which the teachers unions and “educrats” prevent any meaningful change.
Besides, in the end, why shouldn’t parents – particularly poor parents - have a choice in where to send their children, and thus maximize their children’s chances for success and breaking the cycle of poverty?
The unions and “educrats” hold up “public education” as some sort of inviolate talisman that must be preserved in its present state. Hence their myopic focus on inputs (particularly of the monetary variety). In reality, theirs is the behavior of any monopolist, working far harder at insulating itself from competition and thus protecting its monopoly than on what is supposed to be its core function and raison d’etre – educating children.
The focus should and must be on outcomes, not inputs. THE PRIORITY SHOULD NOT BE “PUBLIC EDUCATION” BUT AN “EDUCATED PUBLIC”!!!
Despite mandating that RI teachers have to hold a bachelors degree, a “full” state certification, demonstrate subject matter competency, be “highly qualified”, possess advanced degrees, and be subject to testing every five years, student performance still hasn’t improved from where it was before these measures were taken. This suggests that all of this credentialing and extra preparation on behalf of the teachers has had a negligible effect on RI’s education performance and seems to have become nothing more than yet one more item that teacher advocates will use to justify the current level of teacher compensation.
The purpose of public education is to educate our children as well as we can, not to find multiple avenues for validating the adults involved in education.
>So basically, Ken, you don't dispute that what TomW proposes would be effective and preferable >to our current system. You're just asking about cost and the logistics of implementation.
SusanD, I am neither confirming nor denying to be pro TomW or against TomW suggested changes that might; could; would, or might not; could not; would not be effective and or preferable to the current system.
As I verbally lamented to AG Maggie Curran and staff during a meeting some years back, “You lawyers are wordsmiths!” As TomW is a lawyer, I feel I must read and re-read a number of times what he has written to understand his intent and what he is really trying to say before further comment to him also, if suggestions are could be assessed duplication of effort which would cost tax payers more money.
I believe from what I currently understand of the proposals, some alternate vehicle programs to a Rhode Island teacher license and certificate for a private sector degreed persons already exist. A previously bachelor degreed person can become a teacher for two years leading to obtaining a full State of Rhode Island teaching license and certificate under the Rhode Island Non-Traditional Certification Program.
However, the person must still fulfill the Rhode Island master degree and continued certificate training within 5 years; continued certificate training every 5 years and pass the fully qualified to teach core subject matter testing of the federal “No Child Left Behind” law.
Even though you have acquired a bachelor, master, or PhD degree (s) and a state license and certificates to teach, federal “No Child Left Behind” law require a passing grade on their test to ascertain and verify if you have obtained enough knowledge in your core subject to educate children or you have to be fired..
What is interesting about “No Child Left Behind”, if a school fails to raise students (classroom 5-6 hours out of 24 hours a day) core subject test scores in compliance to “No Child Left Behind” standards over a 5 year period, all teachers and principle can be removed from that school. This has happened in other states already.
Please note, teachers do not control the majority of a child’s day; out of school learning process and weekends, the child’s parent (s) do.
Yes for you out there that like to bash teacher hours, most classroom hours are 5-6 hours but, the teacher is required to report to school before school at a specified time before students depending on principle and school department, on teachers own hours they must create a daily and weekly lesson plan to state standards detailing subject and homework assignments which must be submitted for review and how they relate to the standards, correcting classroom and homework papers, attending staff and parent meeting after school and if they are lucky, not having to work with police because a child brought a loaded gun; knife to school or is selling drugs or a child had an unreported allergic reaction and almost died in the classroom or a child’s glass eye fell out of its socket in class. Per current law, all classrooms learning activity must be backed up to state-wide standards. All lessons must also be validated to “No Child Left Behind” federal standards. The amount of paperwork has grown by approximately 200% with no extra funding provided by federal government.
I highly suggest before you bash teachers and pass judgment on their implied working hours, volunteer as I have to assist and understand the teachers in your community. Volunteer for early childhood, elementary, middle and secondary classrooms (all are different teaching methods and age groups) over a year or so to fully understand what the little darlings are like when they are grouped together and make sure you have all the required contagious disease shots updated beforehand. You might have to undergo a background check and might also be required to submit to random drug testing.
Rhode Island law requires all teachers in Rhode Island be member of the State of Rhode Island Employee Retirement System even though they are municipal employees. According Rhode Island education system census 2005-2006, there are 11,890 teachers in the state and 16, 349.1 Full Time Equivalent (FTE) State of Rhode Island employees.
According to Mr. Walsh of NEARI, a Rhode Island teacher contributes 9.5% of their salary (deductions reduce yearly salary) to State of Rhode Island Employee Retirement System. Some Rhode Island municipalities also withhold federal social security and some municipalities do not enroll teachers in social security.
State of Rhode Island employees contribute 8.75% (deductions reduce yearly salary) of their salary and also social security is withheld.
Most of us understand federal social security as a means of just a retirement income however, social security has a second overlooked section that maintains an extensive insurance policy (according to social security administration; more money than we as individuals would place on ourselves.) on each enrollee providing disabled unemployment payments, death payment and death benefits to enrollee, spouse or divorcee and children.
According to the 2005-2006 employment numbers above Rhode Island teachers make up approximately 73% of the retirement system and directly contribute 0.75% out of their take home salary more than state employees as mandated by Rhode Island law.
Forgive me if I am suspect but, the sudden public revelation by this administration that the State of Rhode Island Employee Retirement System is under funded and the blame is teacher retirement make me wonder.
Then the State Auditor General publicly indicates an audit of separate municipal retirement systems are under funded and those municipal systems should be moved into the State of Rhode Island Employee Retirement System (logic indicates if you are already are in debt, why take on more debt and additional overhead management cost to put you deeper in debt. Have we not learned anything from the present subprime loan/mortgage crises and the old RIMFAC savings and loan crash?).
The above indicates speculation that it could be attributed to the governor’s widely publicized and successful attempt to change laws reducing State of Rhode Island Employee Retirement System benefits causing an accelerated exodus of state employees and teachers or maybe some department had its hands in the cookie jar and is now trying to deflect responsibility.
If the teachers are removed from the system and enrolled into a 401K matching fund, where does that leave the state employees and if the state is running a deficit, it doesn’t have the funds to provide a 401K match!
This administration started with $100 million deficit and promised to balance budget in first term of service based on changing state public service into a business model. A second term of same administration service carrying the same $100 million deficit forward has grown to a reported $345 million and projected by 2010 to reach $500 million deficit.