You failed to mention all of the tax cuts to the rich in Rhode Island and heavy reliance on the lottery and gambling income and the total mismanagement of trying to move the State of RI public service model (break-even) and turn it into a privatized model (for profit).

See http://whatcheer.net/ripr/ripr24.pdf

You are doing exactly what Governor Carcieri and the Republican Party wants you to do which is to blame the unions and teachers for all of the current state, cities and towns budget problems.

It seems to me no matter what information or counter argument is presented to you, NEA and the teachers will always be the root of the problem.

Like all little children with an axe to grind because they were sent to the “time out corner” too many times you’ll find some way to discredit NEA and teacher even at the same time you discredit yourself.

>>You failed to mention all of the tax cuts to the rich in Rhode Island and heavy reliance on the lottery and gambling income and the total mismanagement of trying to move the State of RI public service model (break-even) and turn it into a privatized model (for profit).

Tax cuts for the rich? Pleeeeeez! RI remains one of the highest taxed states in the country. Look north to NH - no income or sales tax, yet better roads, schools and economic performance than RI.

And the only mismanagement of a "break even model" (there's no such thing in the public sector) to a "privatized model (for profit)" is that the DEMOCRAT General Assembly just short-circuited it with another of their infamous midnight bills (just following orders from their union bosses, of course). There's nothing wrong with "for profit" - what IS wrong is Cranston crossing guards, teacher union featherbedding and protection of mediocrity, etc.

>>You are doing exactly what Governor Carcieri and the Republican Party wants you to do which is to blame the unions and teachers for all of the current state, cities and towns budget problems. It seems to me no matter what information or counter argument is presented to you, NEA and the teachers will always be the root of the problem.

Follow the money. The "unions and teachers" pay and benefits constitute the bulk of municipal budgets.

But it comes down to two different questions. Raising sufficient revenue to cover expenditures, AND are those expenditures reasonable and necessary.

As to Rhode Island's public school teachers, given the totality of their compensation (salary, benefits, pensions) - given their poor performance (in the aggregate) they are grossly overpaid (in the aggregate).

Are there stellar teachers that are worth more than they are paid now? Darn right. But their union wants uniformity in pay, save for seniority. So they're screwed in order to subsidize their slacker and/or incompetent brethren ... but hey, that's a price that has to be paid for "union solidarity."

Quote: As to Rhode Island's public school teachers, given the totality of their compensation (salary, benefits, pensions) - given their poor performance (in the aggregate) they are grossly overpaid (in the aggregate).

Yes, Tom and remember because YOU said so makes it all true!

TomW
Quote: “Tax cuts for the rich? Pleeeeeez! RI remains one of the highest taxed states in the country. Look north to NH - no income or sales tax, yet better roads, schools and economic performance than RI.”
True evidently they are managing resources and manpower better than RI but New Hampshire gets its dollars from other sources mainly Business Taxes (7 highest in nation), Corporate taxes (6 highest in nation), Property taxes (3 highest in nation).
Resource The Tax Foundation, Washington, DC: http://www.taxfoundation.org/
New Hampshire
THE FACTS ON NEW HAMPSHIRE’S TAX CLIMATE
Here are some basic facts on New Hampshire’s tax system and how it compares to other states:
Tax Freedom Day Arrived on April 22nd in New Hampshire
Tax Freedom Day is the day when Americans finally have earned enough money to pay off their total tax bill for the year. In 2007, New Hampshire taxpayers had to work until April 22nd to pay their total tax bill, ranking it 33rd in the nation. This is over a week earlier than National Tax Freedom Day (April 30th). The Tax Freedom Days of neighboring states were; Vermont May 9th (ranked 4th nationally); Maine, May 4th (ranked 11th nationally) and Massachusetts May 6th (ranked 9th in the nation).
Full study of Tax Freedom Day, nationwide and in each state
New Hampshire's State/Local Tax Burden Among Nation's Lowest
During the past three decades, New Hampshire's state and local tax burden has consistently ranked among the nation's lowest. Estimated at 8.0% of income, New Hampshire's state/local tax burden percentage ranks second lowest in the nation behind Alaska. Taxpayers in New Hampshire pay $3,504 per-capita in state and local taxes, and per capita state income is $43,745.
New Hampshire's State and Local Tax Burden, 1970-Present
New Hampshire's 2007 Business Tax Climate Ranks 7th
New Hampshire ranks 7th in the Tax Foundation's State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on property, including residential and commercial property. Neighboring states ranked as follows: Vermont (46th), Maine (42nd) and Massachusetts (36th).
50-State Comparison of Business Tax Climates
New Hampshire's Individual Income Tax System
New Hampshire's personal income tax system is one of the nation's most simple and inexpensive systems. With no separate tax brackets, New Hampshire's 5% flat income tax only applies to dividend and interest income. As a result many citizens have little or no income tax liability. New Hampshire's 2004 individual income tax collections were $42 per person, which ranked 42nd highest nationally.
50-State Table of Individual Income Tax Rates
New Hampshire's Corporate Income Tax System
New Hampshire's corporate tax structure consists of two brackets, with a top rate of 9.25% kicking in at an income level of $150,000. Among states levying corporate income taxes, this top rate ranks the state 6th highest nationally. In 2004, corporate tax collections reached $314 per capita, which ranked 2nd highest nationally.
50-State Table of Corporate Income Tax Rates
New Hampshire Levies No Sales Tax; Gasoline and Cigarette Taxes Modest
New Hampshire levies no general sales or use tax on consumers. Alaska, Delaware, Montana and Oregon are the only other states not to levy a general sales tax. New Hampshire's gasoline tax stands 19.6 cents per gallon, which ranks 32nd highest nationally. New Hampshire's cigarette tax stands at 80 cents per pack of twenty, ranking 26th highest nationally. The gasoline tax was adopted in 1923, and the cigarette tax in 1939.
50-State Table of Sales and Excise Tax Rates
New Hampshire's Property Taxes among Nation's Highest
As one of only two states that tax neither sales nor wages (Alaska is the other), New Hampshire is heavily dependent on property tax revenue. New Hampshire is one of the 37 states that collect property taxes at both the state and local levels. As in most states, local governments collect far more. New Hampshire's localities collected $2,026,125,000 in property taxes in fiscal year 2004, which is the latest year the Census Bureau published state-by-state property tax collections. At the state level, New Hampshire collected $493,589,000 in property taxes during FY 2004. That brings its combined state/local property taxes to $2,519,714,000, or $1,940 per capita, ranking 3rd highest nationally.
State property tax collections per capita by state
Federal Tax Burdens and Expenditures: New Hampshire is a Donor State
New Hampshire taxpayers receive among the least amount of federal funding per dollar of federal taxes paid. Per dollar of federal tax collected in 2004, New Hampshire citizens received approximately $0.67 in the way of federal spending. This ranks the state 3rd lowest among all states. This represents a slight fall from 1992 when New Hampshire received $0.74 per dollar of taxes in federal spending, ranking it 5th lowest nationally. Neighboring states and the amount of federal expenditures received per dollar of federal taxes collected were: Vermont ($1.12), Maine ($1.40), and Massachusetts ($0.77).
Comparing the amount of federal taxes sent to Washington with the amount of federal spending coming back to the state

>>Yes, Tom and remember because YOU said so makes it all true!

No Frederick.

Virtually every comparative study, if not every single one, such as the NEAP (a/k/a "nation's report card")ranks RI's school performance as below average.

In turn, virtually every comparative study, if not every single one, comparing U.S. public schools' performance against other advanced nations, ranks U.S. performance as below average (in the mid-twenties out 30 according to the OECD).

Studies show that once adjusted for an apples-to-apples comparison, public school teachers in the U.S. make significantly more than comparable professionals (see, e.g., the recent Manhattan Institute study which, significantly, found such results before even factoring in the high value of the pension benefit).

In turn, RI's public school teachers are among the Top 5 in the U.S. based on salary alone.

So we've below average public schools in a country that in turn has below average public schools and teachers that are among the highest paid in the world.

I stand by my statement.

If you've got links to studies showing that RI's schools are performing well - credible studies, therefore RIDOE doesn't count - by all means share them with us! (Good luck finding them, for if they exist NEARI would be already have been trumpeting them as a reason why they deserve the raises they are demanding.)

And the Tax Foundation on RI:

Tax Freedom Day Arrived on May 9th in Rhode Island

Tax Freedom Day is the day when Americans finally have earned enough money to pay off their total tax bill for the year. In 2007, Rhode Island taxpayers had to work until May 9th to pay their total tax bill, ranking it 5th highest in the nation, 9 days after national Tax Freedom Day (April 30th). The Tax Freedom Days of neighboring states were: Connecticut, May 20th (ranked 1st nationally) and Massachusetts, May 6th (ranked 9th nationally).

Rhode Island's State/Local Tax Burden Among Nation's Highest

Since 1990, Rhode Island's state and local tax burden has generally increased. Estimated at 12.7% of income, Rhode Island’s state/local tax burden percentage ranks 4th highest nationwide, well above the national average of 11.0%. Rhode Island taxpayers pay $5,291 per capita in state and local taxes, and per capita income in the state is $41,809.

Rhode Island's 2007 Business Tax Climate Ranks 50th

Rhode Island ranks 50th in the Tax Foundation's State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on property, including residential and commercial property. Neighboring states ranked as follows: Connecticut (37th) and Massachusetts (36th).

Rhode Island's Individual Income Tax System

Rhode Island's personal income tax system consists of five brackets and a top rate of 9.9%, kicking in at an income level of $336,550. Rhode Island's income tax system closely adheres to the federal income tax code. Among states levying personal income taxes, Rhode Island's top rate of 9.9% is 2nd highest nationally. Rhode Island's 2004 individual income tax collections were $883 per person, which ranked 17th highest nationally.

Rhode Island's Corporate Income Tax System

Rhode Island's corporate tax structure consists of a flat rate of 9% on all corporate income. Among states levying corporate income taxes, Rhode Island's rate ranks 7th highest nationally. In 2004, corporate tax collections were $64 per capita, which ranked 34th highest nationally.

Rhode Island Levies Sales Tax well above the National Median; Gasoline and Cigarette Taxes among Nation's Highest

Rhode Island levies a 7% general sales or use tax on consumers, which is well above the national median of 5%. State and local governments combined collect $745 per capita in general sales taxes, which ranks 29th highest nationally. Rhode Island's gasoline tax stands at 31 cents per gallon, which ranks 6th highest nationally. Rhode Island's cigarette tax stands at $2.46 per pack of twenty and is the nation's 2nd highest. The sales tax was adopted in 1947, the gasoline tax in 1925 and the cigarette tax in 1939.

Rhode Island Property Taxes: Among the Highest

Rhode Island is one of the 37 states that collect property taxes at both the state and local levels. As in most states, local governments collect far more. Rhode Island's localities collected $1,757,602,000 in property taxes in fiscal year 2004, which is the latest year the Census Bureau published state-by-state property tax collections. At the state level, Rhode Island collected $1,532,000 in property taxes during FY 2004, making its combined state/local property taxes $1,759,134,000. That brings its per capita collection to $1,629 and ranks Rhode Island's combined collections 5th highest nationally.

Federal Tax Burdens and Expenditures: Rhode Island is a Beneficiary State:
Rhode Island taxpayers receive about as much federal funding per dollar of federal taxes paid compared to the average state. Per dollar of federal tax collected in 2004, Rhode Island citizens received approximately $1.02 in the way of federal spending. This ranks the state 31st highest nationally and represents a decline from 1992 when Rhode Island received $1.10 per dollar of taxes in federal spending (23rd highest). Neighboring states and the federal spending they received per dollar of federal taxes collected were: Connecticut ($0.66) and Massachusetts ($0.77).

Tom W

Oh I am so sorry!

I used data from Tax Foundation that was 2005 ranking New Hampshire #3 highest in property tax to counter your assertion that New Hampshire was accomplishing more with fewer taxes than Rhode Island.

I should have used newest data as of 2006 which ranks New Hampshire # 2 highest in “median property tax paid on homes” right after #1 New Jersey. Rhode Island only ranks #6 highest in “median property tax paid on homes”

See: http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/propertytax_state%20_owneroccupied_2006-20070912.pdf

Ken -

I'll gladly take the somewhat higher property tax in return for no income or sales taxes ... and better roads, schools and economy.

"Rhode Island only ranks #6 highest in “median property tax paid on homes”"

Yes, Ken. Sixth highest out of fifty. Pretty bad, isn't it? And Rhode Island is the seventh highest taxed overall.

By contrast, its schools are ranked 46 and they get an "F" on Academic Achievement of Low Income and Minority Students, an "F" on Flexibility in Management and an "F" in Return on Investment. Remember, this is comparing apples to apples - Rhode Island schools to other schools, not to the private sector.

Keep spinning numbers like cotton candy, Ken. It looks pretty but it's all air. There simply is no defense of the ratio of compensation to results in Rhode Island's schools.

http://www.uschamber.com/icw/reportcard/default

(Another terrific, fact packed post, Donald.)

Rhode Island education ranking depends on what report you are putting stock into. Ranking the State of Rhode Island and pointing the finger to just one entity without looking at all interacting factors does a disservice to the state as a whole.

Don’t forget Justin (Anchor Rising) reported and was quoting the Rhode Island Association of Principals that a new State of Rhode Island educational standard in conjunction with Federal “No Child Left Behind” standards and law (which teachers must teach to in the classroom) are being implemented in Rhode Island.

2006-2007 Rhode Island is ranked (1 is highest) 14 out of 50 states as smartest state award K-12 education.
2005-2006 Rhode Island is ranked (1 is highest) 16 out of 50 states as smartest state award K-12 education.
See 2006-2007: http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm
See 2005-2006: http://ri.localschooldirectory.com/index.php/cPath/40

2007 Rhode Island is ranked 15 out of top 20 states for education climate.

2007 Rhode Island is ranked 11 out of top 20 states most educated workforce.

See: http://www.businessfacilities.com/SecondRankingPR2007.pdf

2007 Governor Carcieri Announces 85% Rhode Island Elementary and Middle Schools are meeting their educational targets (that is 213 out of 250 schools passing required tests in subject matter)

See: http://www.ride.ri.gov/Commissioner/news/pressrels/2007_pressreleases/news%20release%20%20-%20final%205-30-07%20%20classifications.pdf

If you need more, I can retrieve Federal Department of Education rankings data.

I guess the above rankings and Governors press release is wrong according to Don Hawthorne, Tom W and Susan D because unions, NEA and teachers are involved.

Seems to me that some people are having trouble staying on topic, so let me rephrase the questions for Ken:

• Do you assert that the many public comments by the NEA listed under Lesson #1 are true?
• If so, on what basis?

It is most amusing that Ken would state that I will find a way to discredit the NEA "no matter what information or counter argument is presented."

Geez, I didn't make all those claims in Lesson #1 that are demonstrably false - but the NEA did. Nobody has to work hard to discredit the NEA because they have shown that they are more than capable of doing it to themselves.

How does pointing out the obvious discredit the person pointing out the falsehoods?

So I will turn the tables on Ken and ask him to answer the following specific questions:

• Which of the Lesson #1 statements and actions by the NEA can you document as true?
• Will you defend the NEA even if they put forth documented mistruths?
• Do you support the 3050 tax cap which says local taxes can only go up 4-5.25%/year, i.e., do you support a tax cap which requires taxes not to increase faster than the rate of increase in the incomes of the very people who pay the taxes?
• Should School Committees agree to teachers' union contracts whose terms would cause tax increases which violate state law, i.e., the tax cap law?
• Should School Committees agree to teachers' union contracts whose terms would result in taxes increasing at a rate faster than taxpayer incomes?

Ken:

You "Business Facilities" link also demonstrates that NH ranks far above RI.

"Most educated workforce" is a matter of coincidence, e.g., many educated folks who have jobs around the 128 belt commute from Rhode Island. That has absolutely no evaluative bearing on the quality of RI schools. (The only thing it indicates is that highly educated people can't find jobs in RI because of RI's anti-business climate.)

In any case, that and the Morgan Quitno stuff, when you look at the methodology, is weighted primarily toward INPUTS, i.e., spending, teacher-student ratios, etc. We will stipulate for the record that RI ranks high on INPUTS (i.e., taxpayer funding).

But it's the OUTPUTS that matter. RI's rankings on, e.g., the NEAP, measure the outputs - the proficiency of the students after the educational establishment has had its way with them. On outputs RI consistently ranks poorly.

With all due respect to Governor Carcieri - and none offered or intended for RIDOE, and its Educrat in Chief McWalters, whose sole reason for existence appears to be to bide time until his pension bell goes "ring ring ring" - that statement(s) that 85% of RI schools are meeting their targets may be factually true, but on its face demonstrates that the targets have been "dumbed down" to reflect the "dumbed down" performance of RI's schools. If RI's targets had any teeth then there'd be some correlation with those results and NEAP etc.

One more question for Ken. Which school district do you (or your family member) work for?

As I said before, I’ve done volunteer work in various RI school systems. I am not a teacher or union member.

I am retired.

Don,

When I find an EG NEA member and sit down face-to-face to go over what has been said, then I'll decide what to say. Maybe a long cup of coffee over looking the harbor.