What ever may be said about him, I was pround of George Bush when he declared "We will bring them to justice, or we will bring justice to them".

Unfortunately, Bin Laden is still out there somewhere. Unfortunately, the "act of war" has been downgraded to a "criminal act". Some how it has been determined that we cannot be at war with a group that is not a nation. Oh really, how about "the Tripoli pirates"?

Guys, thanks for the multiple stories and threads on this 8th anniversary of a truly horrible day. It's very important we never forget.

"I will Never Forget those that perished that day, especially the firefighters, EMT’s and police officers that answered the call for help."

Said differently: "I will Never Forget those that perished that day, even those that performed the JOB for which they were PAID to do and freely CHOSE to do (i.e. firefighters, EMT’s and police officers), not to mention those "civilians" that rather than exit the towers stayed behind to help others without the expecation of Compensation".

Is there any depth to which you WON'T stoop, you soulless ghoul?

Thanks, Andrew and EMT. Just for the record, if I were an accountant I would "especially" remember the accountants that perished that day.

George Elbow, don't forget to add that remembrances shouldn't be offered about US soldiers killed in action. They're paid too, right?

Maybe you can hook up with Fred Phelps and do it at military funerals. He's a guy with your kind of class.

EMT / Michael / Andrew: it appears that your hero-worship mindset clouds your ability to read and comprehend the English language.

Andrew, specifically, I never said "rememberances shouldn't be offered". Quite the contrary.

I took issue with Michael's initial comment of "ESPECIALLY the firefighters, EMT’s and police officers that answered the call for help".

"Especially" implies that the loss of their lives was more tragic than the loss of anyone else that died that day.

Many people died that day. They were ALL equally tragic (i.e. no "especiallys").

I'm tired of the hero / "Rescue Me" crap. Those that "answered the call" were doing their JOB.

It is god-awful that they lost their lives. But so too is it awful that those other folks who were doing their jobs (e.g. insurance agents, accountants, financiers, waiters, bellhops, cooks, brokers, priests, etc.) lost their lives that day.

Last nite on the History Channel they were showing footage of that dreadful day. There was an interview of a NY Police Officer who was covered in dust & breathing heavy. The reporter said "It's been a tough day for you guys ...you're real heroes", to which the Police Officer responded "We're not heroes, we just doing the job we get paid to do".

That, my friends, was my "classless" point.

Again, I am soooooo tired of the hero crap, the "public servent" crap, the "do it for children" crap. These people have a job just like everyone else. They get paid to do the job they do, but too many act as though they are working for free and making some monumental sacrifice. Get over yourselves.

I'm with you on this one George. It is nauseating how the public safety crowd endlessly celebrate their losses as somehow being special.
Uhhh no!!
The reality is the chiefs on site did not expect Tower 1 to fall. Had they believed the steel would buckle under the intensity of the fire they would have pulled their guys out of that building. How do we know that?? Because that's exactly what they did in Tower 2 after 1 fell. They left that building as fast as they could. I don't blame them. They should have left because that building, like Tower 1, was an unstable deathtrap. What I object to is this notion that these firefighters somehow volunteered to give up their lives.
NONSENSE!!
When those buildings started to fall those firefighters, emt's and police were running just as fast as everyone else to get out. I believe it is very important to honor and celebrate ALL who fell that day. I'm nauseated by the phony hero worship applied to a certain few.

George and Tim, you must be proud.

I've written a book, a blog, a dozen editorials, numerous essays, all published and easily found in stores and on-line. If you can find one example of the alleged "hero worship" by all means bring it to my attention, I must have missed it.

We are doing our job, nothing more. I challenge you to find a firefighter, cop etc. who states publicly anything more.

Perhaps you should open your eyes and ears and get the jealous rage that dominates your thoughts out and replace it with reason and sanity.

Since when is remembrance a zero-sum quantity?

If not forgetting the innocent civilians who got blasted out of existence on a normal workday is the only point, then there's no need to downgrade the sacrifices others like firefighters, cops and EMTs have made. Believe me, we understand what's being written loud and clear.

But then we can't all have George Elbow's clear judgment to realize that getting killed after entering a danger zone is not "some monumental sacrifice".

Mike sez,
~~~"I've written a book, a blog, a dozen editorials, numerous essays, all published and easily found in stores and on-line. If you can find one example of the alleged "hero worship" by all means bring it to my attention, I must have missed it."~~~

Mike we don't have too look very far. Andrew cited your very own words.
"I will “Never Forget” those that perished that day, especially the firefighters, EMT’s and police officers that answered the call for help."

..."answered the call for help" ?? As opposed to what Mike?? Not showing up? How about writing this instead. ..'showed up and did their jobs'.
Quite a difference with your "spin" don't you think??

~~~"We are doing our job, nothing more. I challenge you to find a firefighter, cop etc. who states publicly anything more."~~~

According to you Mike you weren't doing your jobs. You (your words) 'answered the call for help'. How special of you.

~~~"Perhaps you should open your eyes and ears and get the jealous rage that dominates your thoughts out and replace it with reason and sanity."~~~

Yeah I'm so filled with jealous rage I believe you firefighters, emt's and cops should get your benefits and life insurance paid for 100% by the taxpayers due to the dangerous nature of your public safety jobs. How heartless and ruthless of me eh Mike?? I appreciate the harsh ugly real world reality of what you guys do for a living. What I don't appreciate is the endless deification of those who pass while doing it.

Tim,

Show some libertarian stones here. If you don't like listening to people memorialize firefighters, then go someplace where you don't have to listen or read any posts on the subject. I honestly think you won't be missed, and I don't think people are planning to tear down all the firefighter's memorials or ban memorial services on September 11 for fear of offending your distorted sense of endless deification.

You're coming across as quite detatched from reality here.

Wow, Tim. You really should re-read this post, my original post and the comments. You should be ashamed, but won't be. If you find "answer the call for help" offensive it's time to check into rehab.

Andrew, you're sounding like a whiney little lib right now. Trying to chase off/muzzle anyone who doesn't agree with your company line. Hoping you can do better than this. Perhaps your future is better served at RIDemise?? This is their MO. I haven't been disrespectful to anyone here. I have merely responded to George being attacked because he had the temerity to tell it like it is vis-a-vis the role of firefighters during 9/11. I've since responded respectfully to Mike when he challenged my point of view. Are we not allowed a give and take of opinions here? Mike challenged me to back up my comments and I used his own words to do so. Andrew you don't have to agree with me. I really could care less what you think of me, my opinions or anything else in this world. However it is disturbing that as a contributor on this fine and fledgling blog your pavlovian response to those whose opinions make you uncomfortable is to chase them away.
Talk about the need to grow some stones....

Andrew,

What the F' are u talking about?

Your blind support of Michael, et al clouds your judgement.

You continue to incorrectly assert that I suggested "rememberances shouldn't be offered".

Re-read my post, pal. My "Never forget" appropriately included your's and Michael's precious FFs.

I just didn't imply that one group should be remembered more than another group.

You and Michael are so blinded by the hero-worship thing that you can't possibly understand the point that is being made by people like Tim and I.

Stop acting like the tragic death of a paid public safety official is any more tragic (i.e. "Especially") than that of other individuals.

And as Tim noted, Michael's common and tiresome characterization of them "answering the call for help" implies something special.

It suggests that others ignore cries for help, while these special few respond. In fact, the responders are merely doing the job they are well paid to do. We pay them to respond so others don't have to.

This "answering the call for help" crap is not unlike Prov FF Tom Kenney's line of "giving selflessly". Save us all the BS and just say "we do the job we are well paid to do".

Many of us are tired of the public safety community trying to capitalize on 9/11 (witness Cranston FF's getting it as a paid holiday).

Grow some stones and stop parroting the hero crap.

Your point and Tim's is crystal clear. You don't like special praise being given to firefighters. Why that means that people who want to offer that praise should stop, instead of you not listening to it is a mystery to me, because praising firefighters doesn't hurt anyone (except maybe as the irrational response to some deep psychological trauma).

Andrew,

Go back to the beginning.

I simply amended Michael's initial comment to provide EQUAL rememberance to ALL that tragically perished on that miserable day.

You and the other ladies got your panties in a twist and chose not to follow your own advice ...if you didn't like what I had to say , don't listen.

Instead, due presumably to some deep psychological trauma (and an obvious need to stroke our 'men in uniform'), you attacked me by distorting my comments (incorrectly asserting that I suggested that "rememberances shouldn't be offered") and lumping me in a category with Frank Phelps.

As you can imagine, that really hurt my thin skin.

And, again due presumably to some deep psychological trauma, you continue to struggle with my point, which is that I don't like fools that suffer from delusions of grandeur and who believe that they are Entitled to something special (e.g. life-time medical, outsized Pensions, special holidays, clothing allowances, annual salary increases regardless of taxpayers ability to pay, etc.) as a result of those delusions of grandeur.

You've stepped into a simple memorial post, about events on a tragic day, to make political points about compensation and clothing allowances and medical benefits and pensions. None of that is relevant to the events of September 11.

That what's put you squarely in the category with Fred Phelps. Glad to clear that up for you.

There you go again, Andrew.

The "political" points were only raised well after my initial post and in response to the attacks you and the other ladies lodged against my very simple clarification that ALL who died on that day should be Equally remembered.

I understand Michael, EMT, etc. would like us to believe that the only ones (or the only worthy ones) who perished that day were public safety officials, but pesky facts say otherwise.

Bottom line - if you can't handle the blow-back sweetpea, don't listen & don't respond. Clear?

I wrote a personal essay about my feelings as they pertained to 9-11 and posted it on my blog which is read mostly by people in my line of work. Two people, George and Tim found objection to my remembering the victims, especially the police, emt's and firefighters, not because they are a special class of people, rather because a brotherhood exists in our profession that people like Tim and George will never understand, and decide to show their ignorance on another blog that showed class, respect and dignity by cross posting.

My words "answer the call for help" seem to have annoyed these two. A simple phrase describing exactly what we do for a living put these too on the defensive. It really is pathetic. Normally I would just ignore the stupidity and let the petulant little childrem vent. However, this particular subject is sacred to me, and I won't let it rest.

"I will “Never Forget” those that perished that day, especially the firefighters, EMT’s and police officers that answered the call for help."

My comment stands, George and Tim. And if you don't like it, too bad.

George Elbow,

Remembering the unique sacrifices made by some of those who lost their lives on September 11 doesn't denigrate the memories of the loss of others who lost their lives on the same day. Remembrance is not a zero-sum quantity, a point I made earlier. You advanced firefighters get clothing allowances and problems with the pension system as some kind of profound reply to this idea, showing how much the non-public safety personnel killed on September 11 really factor into your thinking. They'd still have been killed, even if there were no clothing allowances or if pensions were more rationally managed. It's not relevant. Or are you saying that if the clothing allowances were smaller, then it would be OK to specifically remember the firefighters? Whatever. Your non-sequitirs are not "blowback", they're the same stuff you've always believed.

You don't like firefighters, for reasons that have nothing to do with September 11. That's all you've got. No one has to pretend that there's anything deeper at work in your thinking, and a bunch of tough-guy talk from behind the keyboard doesn't disguise any of this.

Michael - we don't expect you to change your view / comments. We respect that.

By the same token, respect our view that your original post implied, by virtue of the word "Especially", that certain individual's deaths (paid public safety personel) were somehow more tragic than others.

My original post was simply addressing that, amending your comment to provide rememberance EQUALLY to ALL.

Poor Andrew keeps chasing his tail on his screwball "zero sum" theory. It wasn't a matter of exclusion, rather a matter of equal treatment.

The broader issues of the Public Safety community's nauseating exploitation of 9/11 (e.g. Cranston Union turning it into a paid holiday) along with their mindset that they, as Tom Kenney likes to say, "give Selflessly" as if they don't get paid (i.e. the give but don't receive??) only became an issue after you, EMT and Andrew had a hissy fit went on the attack.

Just like we (perhaps not Andrew) don't like it when the Teachers' Union carp about "doing it for the Children", many of us don't like the hero-crap of "answering the call" and other delusions of grandeur (e.g. EMT telling us once that he has pictures of Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty doing things that would make you wet your pants) that is spewed by the Public Safety crowd.

There is a general theme amongst yall that you sacrifice and "give selflessly", when in fact, like most people, you are just doing the F'ing job you are paid to do.

I know you folks like to be and are accustomed to being stroked, but we are not all Andrews. We thank you every week with a paycheck and for the rest of your life with free healthcare and a fat Pension. If you don't like that, too bad.

George, you are delusional. I can "especially" anybody I choose. As I stated earlier, if I were an accountant and my fellow workers were hurt or killed, and I had a blog that other accountants read, then my post would have said, "especially the accountants," not because they are a special class of people, rather they are the people I would be closest to.

Your point is completely misdirected and ridiculous. You are attempting to twist the language to suit your views and it isn't working.

Quit now, you are cementing the label "Moron" onto your fake name.

My points are sound. A remembrance that emphasizes firefighters doesn't detract from anyone else's memorial, just like a Cantor-Fitzgerald memorial that emphasizes their losses on that day doesn't detract from anyone else, or a World War II memorial that mentions the soldiers and sailors lost from one town doesn't detract from memorials in other towns (or maybe George Elbow wants to take his online-Fred Phelps routine to these places too. Oh, they're not firefighters, so he probably doesn't). The response that firefighters get clothing allowances and the penison system is screwed up does nothing to address this.

Or maybe my use of the term "zero-sum" has confused George, because he's unable to count to zero.

Michael - once again, you are free to have any views that you want and I don't expect you to change them.

And you are correct, your subsequent post (in response to my initial post) clarified your intent with respect to "Especially". And your clarification / explanation was a fair one indeed.

But it was AFTER the fact, after my initial post ...the broader discussion had already begun at that point.

I hope you will note that in my initial post I kept it short and sweet, not bringing the broader issues into play. Do I not get a reduction in my "moron account" for that?

That being said, are you really going to deny that the FF community doesn't generally suffer from delusions of grandeur and generally exploit 9/11, best demonstrated by Cranston FFs turning it into a paid holiday ...like they can afford it?

Do you not agree that when FF's talk about their JOB and make contract demands, they generally act as though they "give selflessly", "sacrifice" and "answer the call" as opposed to "we do the JOB we are well PAID to do"?

Just look at the back and forth Tom Kenney and I had a year or so ago. The poor fella nearly blew a gasket when I informed him that Firefighting didn't even make the Dept of Labor's Top Ten Most Dangerous Jobs.

Instead of being happy that he and his comrades were getting well paid to do a job that isn't even in the Top Ten most dangerous, he went off the deep end when I shattered his delusion of grandeur. He went nuts, as it was critical for him to have that delusion that is so common amongst you folk. 'Nuff said?

The broader issues of the Public Safety community's nauseating exploitation of 9/11 (e.g. Cranston Union turning it into a paid holiday)

Actually, the O'Leary administration offered it unilaterally and without prompting or request from the union. The union then made a concession in exchange, I don't recall what exactly.

But that's called a "fact," and I know you don't like "facts" that don't fit with your world view.

Sorry.

(e.g. EMT telling us once that he has pictures of Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty doing things that would make you wet your pants)

Which was my reply to your suggestion that Paul wasn't actually working at all. It's called "context," another concept you have no freaking clue about.

A shrink could make a fortune on you George, but in the end I don't think it would make a dent.

Tom Kenny is a friend but I have nothing to do with whatever he writes here or elsewhere. I absolutely can deny that firefighters have visions of granduer. The press, and Hollywood portrays us heroicly at times, usually after one or more of us is killed, but that is their perogative. They are equally as quick to condemn, usually when one of us does something stupid.

Your lumping all firefighters as one voice is as disengenuous as me lumping all of the commenters here on Anchor Rising with you and your views.

And incedentally, you had the power to just leave this post alone but you chose to attack it.

Andrew,

My points are sound.

My initial point was to provide EQUAL rememberance to ALL. A simple concept you seem to struggle with.

From that simple point, a broader discussion ensued, which included the view that FF's tend to exploit 9/11 and suffer from delusions of grandeur, all of which are used to extract unaffordable pay & benefits from the Taxpayers (witness the Cranston FF's getting 9/11 as a Paid holiday).

A number of people you work with don't like the "Do it for the Children" line spewed forth by the Teachers' Union.

Similarly, some of us don't like the "we answer the call for help" line spewed forth by the FF's Union.

We prefer "we did the JOB we are well PAID to do".

If you and your pals can't handle a broadening discussion of issues, don't post.

Lastly, I can count to at least 2. There were 2 (Tim and I) that had similar reactions to Michael's original post and there were 2 (You and EMT) that had a different reaction. We'll call it a tie.

Mike sez,
~~Wow, Tim. You really should re-read this post, my original post and the comments. You should be ashamed, but won't be. If you find "answer the call for help" offensive it's time to check into rehab.~~

Mike, I don't find anything you write offensive. I merely point out the creative license you take in your writing. In your world firefighters don't show up for work, they "answer the call for help". (insert goosebumps here)
Even you must admit (you won't) that's just a wee bit over the top.
Now why would I want to check into rehab Mike? I'll follow the preferred firefighter route instead and take a phony disability. lol

Andrew, I'm still here. Sorry!

George, it's the price we pay for not being politically correct. A small price indeed. Carry on!!

George Elbow,

I'm not struggling with anything. Treating rememberance and grief as some kind of limited quantity that has to be doled out in equal-size packages, where offering a remeberance for someone automatically takes away from someone else, makes no sense. And you, Mr. Equally-and-All-in-all-caps, didn't even talk about everyone who died in the towers in your first comment in this thread. The only thing that's consistent about what you write is that you don't like firefighters.

Since you have no answer for any of this, you decided to "broaden the discussion", exhibiting all of the class of someone who shows up at a military funeral to "broaden the discussion" to include America's moral decline.

But I am looking forward to seeing you go after those World War II memorials in town squares that only list the names of some of the soldiers and sailors killed. Not treating everyone equally, you know.

Tim,

Get back to me on political correctness when you've moved past telling people how they should and shouldn't offer their remembrances for tragic events.

I must be crazy responding to this,

"Mike, I don't find anything you write offensive. I merely point out the creative license you take in your writing. In your world firefighters don't show up for work, they "answer the call for help". (insert goosebumps here)
Even you must admit (you won't) that's just a wee bit over the top."

If I just showed up for work I'd never leave the station. People call for help. We answer the call for help. Where is that over the top?

You have to admit this whole thing is nitpicky and ridiculous. And you too could have left things alone but chose to join George Elbow of all people. This wasn't the time or place to voice your dislike of firefighters or their working conditions.

Andrew,

There you go again, silly boy.

You wrote "And you ...didn't even talk about EVERYONE who died in the towers in your first comment in this thread".

Oh really? Your hero-worship still impeding your ability to read the English language?

I'm quite certain that "I will Never Forget THOSE that perished that day" covers everyone.

I just didn't imply one death was more Special (as in esSpecially) than another.

From that, you attacked me, wrongly asserting that I suggested certain people should NOT be remembered and said I had no class. Imagine how hurt I was.

EMT, Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty's personal photagrapher, called me a "ghoul" and it's not even Halloween.

Last I checked, this was a political blog in which broad issues were discussed / debated.

But it seems that a few folks think certain posts are off limits to responding to attacks (I repeat, my initial post was a respectful response to Michael's comment).

Well guess what, if the FF's don't think it is off limits to disrupt the National Mayor's Conference with their petty & perinial contract issues, then this post is not off limits to highlight their delusions of grandeur that culminate in an Entitlement mentality that says they are more deserving than others.

Lastly, let me ask you this: when a customer calls a carpenter and asks for help in building a deck or a home, or to re-roof their triple-decker, does the carpenter leave his wife in the morning by saying "Honey, I'm off to answer the call for help" or does he say "I'm off to work to earn a paycheck ...hope I don't fall off the roof today". Hmmm?

When Bob Walsh calls Andrew and asks for help in persuading taxpayers that the Ponzi Scheme Pensions that his flock has come to expect is indeed sustainable by creating a misleading analysis that doesn't highlight the minimal employee contributions and ZERO risk enjoyed by the employee, does Andrew say he is "Answering the call for help" or does he say "I'm doing my job"?

Well, someone's calling me to help them finish off a few beers. I gotta run and "answer the call for help".

Cheers.

I don't see why you keep kvetching about being "attacked". Replies to you have matched the tone of your original comment. In fact, being compared to Fred Phelps is a step up for you. He actually shows up in person when he wants to use tragic deaths to make an unrelated political point.

And if "especially" traumatizes you to the point where clothing allowances absolutely have to be brought into the discussion about the deaths on September 11 (I don't get it, but it's your logic), then "even" is no better. What comes after an "even" is something less than what comes before, i.e. we mourned everyone who was killed on the Jupiter II, even Dr. Smith. So if we go with your hyper-parsing of your rewrite, you're denigrating both the emergency services personnel and people in the building who stayed behind to help others. Classy, as always, but not surprising for someone who says he pays people to take risks for him and they don't deserve any thanks beyond that.

But are you really going out for a beer, or are you staking out some World War II memorial that doesn't list the name of everyone killed in the war?

George your original comment was poorly thought out, petty and embarrasing, even for you. 99 out of 100 people understand what it means when a person states something like "especially..." Your bias toward firefighters clouded your judgement and you attempted to make an issue out of nothing and failed miserably.

Be a man, admit you dropped the ball and move on. Or better yet, just drop the whole thing.

Michael,

I know you can't comprehend this, but
I don't have a bias towards firefighters.

What I do have is a STRONG bias towards firefighters who (1) suffer delusions of grandeur like EMT who take pictures of FFs "doing things that would make us wet our pants", (2) are Lazy Union-hack No-Shows like EMT's hero, Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty, (3) shamelessly exploit 9/11 like the Cranston Fire Dept and so many others and (4) go thru life thinking they are doing something Special, "sacrificing" and "answering the call for help" or as Tom Kenney likes to say, "Giving Selflessly", and therefore are Entitled to outrageous and unsustainable pay & benefits and no criticism.

Zero-sum Andrew can't bring himself to make the connection between your "answering the call" mentality and the mentality that has your Union leader, Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty telling the Providence Taxpayers that he and his partially working Flock deserve to be "paid what other big Northeastern Cities pay" regardless of the Taxpayer's ability or desire to pay ...because their Entitled to it, as they "answer the call for help" and "give selflessly" while the mere mortals of the world simply go work and do the job they are paid to do. Right?

And actually Michael, I don't think it's 99 out of 100 as you suggest. At most, it's 98 out of 100 (both Tim & I viewed it the same). In fact, not to nit-pick, but based ont the comments, it is probably 50 out of 100 (Tim and I vs EMT and Andrew).

Andrew,

I don't see why you keep kvetching about WWII memorials.

You are comparing apples to oranges, my friend.

Very simply, the FF crowd would have us believe that the only people that died that day were FFs.

In fact, approximately 3,000 people died that day, while less than 400 were FFs.

And before you all strokeout, I will tell you that 1 FF's death is too many.

My point is that the FFs run around and want us to ESPECIALLY remember them, as if they were the only, if not the majority, that tragically perished.

Oh shoot, I gotta run again, someone is asking for help in eating a Pizza ...I gotta go "answer the call for help".

PS - If I keep "giving selflessly" by "answering the call for help", will I be able to retire in my 50s with life-time free medical and a fat Pension that grows by 3% every year? Just wondering.

You don't remember the arguments you're making from comment to comment? I guess it's just whatever lets you express your rage against firefighters in a given moment. Well, to remind you, I mentioned the WWII memorials because you've said that a memorial, even as simple as a few sentences has to remember everyone killed in a conflict equally, whatever that means, in order to be valid, so if the word "especially" bothers you, then you must really have problems with war memorials that mention some of the names of those killed but not all of them. Everyone's not being treated equally there.

But more importantly, saying that "the FF crowd would have us believe that the only people that died that day were FFs" is blatantly untrue, and you know that, because you use words you copied from Michael Morse to bolster your own claim that you want to memorialize everyone.

You are an outright liar to make the claim you have.

Andrew,

All I can tell you is that most of the people I know feel the same way as I do. That is, they have had it up to their eyeballs with the FF community shamelessly capitalizing on 9/11.

You know as well as I do, left unchecked, they'd have us all believe the only people that perished on 9/11 were FFs.

But, most people say nothing and do a silent boil, else they get the Bush Administration / Max Cleland treatment (i.e. if you question the war, you are un-American).

You feed into that BS with your "unless you are ready to give a ball-licking salute to our heroic FFs, then don't say anything at all on this post" attitude.

Now truth be told, I recognize that Michael is actually one of the good guys with good and honest intent.

But, no different than his Union using the National Mayor's Conference as a venue to make their point, I too sometimes use Michael and his words to make a broader point.

You may want to believe my comments are the result of me not liking FFs. Not true. I like many FFs. I just can't stand the delusional and lazy ones, which quite frankly covers most, but not all.

Let me put it to you this way - I know and have worked with several people from the old Texas Instruments. Some were TI employees, while others were contract workers.

A number of them had ties to the Fire Department and it was an objective of many to join the FD.

I'll give you one example of a real conversation with one of the folks that became a FF which is illustrative of all such conversations:

"George, all my life I believed you had to work hard and produce in order to get ahead and stay ahead. Turns out I was wrong. There's another way. Become a FF. Seriously, these guys are F'ing nuts. They have no clue what it's like to actually have to work, to have to be productive day in and day out in order to put food on the table. I've never seen a lazier bunch of Entitlement-minded people in my life. And the second and third generation guys are the worst, as they grew up with this stuff and think it's normal ...they know no other way. I can't believe I wasted so many years doing real work when I could have been living on the tit as a FF all these years."

Bottom line Andrew - call me what you want. The fact is that all too many FFs are lazy hardly-working leaches (e.g. Paul Doughty) and / or fools that suffer from delusions of grandeur (e.g. Tom "Giving Selflessly" Kenney who nearly stroked out when informed that his job wasn't even in the Top 10 Most Dangerous jobs, along with Doughty's personal photagrapher, EMT).

Michael's post, although admittedly not his intent, highlighted these tiresome traits with the "esSpecially" comment and the "answering the call" comment, both of which required the response that I was all too happy to give.

Cheers.

Again you state an outright lie, "You know as well as I do, left unchecked, they'd have us all believe the only people that perished on 9/11 were FF", that you can't produce a scrap of evidence to support.

No one's told you not to comment on this thread. Tim said he didn't like hearing too much praise for firefighters. If he doesn't like hearing it, no one is forcing him to listen. Or you, either.

If you don't want to hear remembrances offered for firefighters, then go someplace where you don't have to listen to them. You won't be missed. If there's a deeper point you want to make, about the real meaning of September 11 being about firefighters clothing allowances and a pension system that has problems, then live with the fact that using tragedy to gain attention for unrelated political points in this way entitles you, at most, to the same respect Fred Phelps has earned from the world.

Most of my working days I spend trying to talk sense into the senseless. Alcoholics, drug addicts, bi-polar, schitzophrenia, delusions and so on.

They make more sense than George.

Michael,

You wrote, "Most of my WORKING days I spend trying to TALK sense into the senseless. Alcoholics, drug addicts, bi-polar, schitzophrenia, DELUSIONS and so on."

Here's a news flash for you Mikey - Despite what your leader (Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty) would have you believe, hanging out at the Union hall talking to your Union-hack comrades does NOT qualify as work.

Andrew -

For someone who likes to lecture people on practicing what they preach (e.g. your off-target apples to oranges comparison of commenting on the words in a political blog vs protesting targeted WWII memorials ...that were never intended to include ALL who died)you really should consider practicing what you preach.

If you don't like hearing people's views on this issue (i.e. if you can't handle anything but a ball-licking FF salute), just don't listen. As you reminded Tim, no one is forcing you to listen. Right?

Cheers.

You’re the one who's said that equal remembrance has to be given to all that tragically perish. Newsflash, mentioning the names of some who died, but not others, is not giving equal remembrance to all. You're the creator of this standard, so don't blame me for your inconsistent application of it.

And after that, you're wrong again. I'm responsible for moderating the comments in a post I create, so I have to read any crud that happens to float through. On the other hand, if you want to go start a blog of your own, I'd be happy never to visit. So would the rest of the world.

Instead of just copying from other people's writing and being crude, try giving actual thinking a shot (about something other than not liking firefighters), and maybe you'll get something right someday. Also, maybe you can find time to go after the Space Shuttle Challenger memorial -- you know, it doesn't say one thing about the astronauts being paid to be astronauts when they died. Go right this wrong for us, George.

If i thought that antbody other than me and george, and reluctantly Andrew were reading this I would Have dropped it a long time ago, but anyway...

I spend an hour a year in the union hall. People's perceptions of unions are so absurd it is laughable. We have elections. We choose who to represent our interests. If they suck, we get rid of them. If they do what we pay them to do, we keep them.

Have a party George, I'm sure there is plenty to misconstrue here.

Michael,

Three brief comments / questions:

1 - how many hours does Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty spend in the Union hall while collecting a paycheck from hard working Taxpayers?

2 - What perception should hard working Taxpayers have of your Union when your leader, Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty failed, for 3+ years, to show up to the Job he was paid to, except when he wanted to earn some overtime, all without a single rebuke from the "giving selflessly" membership?

3 - "If they do what we pay them to do, we keep them". Please explain why, if you are paying your Union-hack leaders, they also collect a pay from the hard-working Taxpayers while "doing Union business", as is/was the case with your leader, Hardly-working Lazy-Ass Pauly "No Show" Doughty?

Andrew -

You wrote: "You’re the one who said that equal remembrance HAS to be given to all that tragically perish".

As you like to say, YOU LIE.

I never said that. What I did say was that I was amending Michael's initial post to include equal rememberance to ALL who tragically died, and more to the point, I took offense to the "especially" part (Michael started with All but then elevated the FFs & Co. above all others mentioned via the "especially" line). That, coupled with the "answering the call" crap was my objection.

His comment implied that the Public Safety deaths were more es-SPECIAL than the others mentioned in his initial post.

Perhaps if he just addressed Public Safety, I may not have taken such offense (although not likely), but as it was woven in with the rememberance of others (i.e. "those that perished that day" would imply ALL), I found the follow-on "ESPECIALLY" rather troublesome. In fact, it was especially troubling.

Let me try it this way - you can have a memorial to the FFs that tragically perished. But to have a memorial that supposedly includes all that perished only to put one group above all others via an "especially" is objectionable.

That being said, I recognize Michael's intent, particularly with is clarifying post after I had made mine.

Given that you "have to read any crud that happens to float through" these posts, I'll cut you some slack in your inability to read and comprehend it all.

Cheers.

PS - is it true that you were the model for The Thinker statue?

Many war memorials offer remembrance to everyone who died in a conflict in their inscriptions, then offer special individual remembrance for the individual soldiers and sailors who share a connection. Nobody sane views the extra remembrance as meaning that others were less important.

And even before we reach your Pharisitical parsing of other people's writings, you flunk your own supposed standard. Looking at mass murder, and then sorting the victims immediately by how they were compensated -- and then saying some are entitled to remembrance, "even" though they were compensated in a certain way -- isn't treating everyone equally, or decently or humanly.