Monique,

I believe John needs to do some more research before he goes on record and also General Treasurer Raimondo because there are a lot of twists and turns to the retirement system. It’s not one size fits all!

First off not all State of Rhode Island employees are union members and I understand John’s comment is mainly being directed towards the unions.

Secondly, not all State of Rhode Island and I’m not fully sure but there might be some in education that are fully funded by the Federal Government including all wages and benefits even though they work for the school departments.

I was one of those fully funded Federal Government/State of RI employees meaning the Federal Government paid 100% into the State of RI retirement system for my retirement. I paid my own medical.

Now I know according to AR, John and you the RI retirement system are so over generous that after 17 years’ service I get a whopping unheard of amount of $1,054.54 after taxes a month and I don’t get a 3% COLA!!!!!

Good thing I live in Hawaii where I don’t have or have reduced taxes due to senior citizen status but still under State of RI law I must and all out of state residents of the RI retiree system are required to pay State of RI income tax.

RI retirees moving to Florida actually end up paying more in taxes than living in Hawaii plus they get winter cold requiring heating bills and brutal exterminator bills and drenching humidity!

And here lies the problem, under the proposal according to John General Treasurer Raimondo wants to cut my retirement by up to 50%.

I say GOOD! DO IT!

The State of RI signed a contract with the Federal Government to utilize federal funds 100% to pay my wages and provide 100% for my retirement in trade for my services.

A lot of the funds in the state retirement system are federal dollars for everyone who was under Federal contract back beyond 1978 and are still being funded. The State of RI does not have the authority to withhold these federal funds and are risking a law suit by the entire contract Federal/State of RI employees and retirees or/and federal sanctions and the possible loss of federal funds being channeled into the State of RI which will exacerbate the budget short fall.

The unfunded retirement liability started with Governor Sunderland trying to balance the savings and loan melt down. Before that the retirement system was being funded close to 80%. After Sunderland every governor has left the state portion underfunded while the employees paid in their funding 100%.

Now the State of Hawaii was in this same position some years back and the union went to court to force the state to put in its required share. The union won and after all the appeals up the court ladder to the highest court the union prevailed and suddenly the state is now under court mandate to fund at the required level.

Maybe this is what needs to happen to RI?

Nothing within Ken's post contradicts anything within John's post.

I am therefore, as usual, scratching my head as to the purpose of the 514-word former.

Someday Ken, you are going to tell us the secret of how you live in America's most expensive state on $1000 a month.
Until then, nothing you say has any credibility.
The delusionary concept you have that Florida has "higher taxes" proves it. Zero income tax. Lower sales, alcohol and gasoline taxes. No "car tax". Most of all-property taxes barely a third those of the RITanic.

John says not a word about the really ridiculous pensions: the judges and high-ranking judicial appointees whose pension income reaches near or hits six figures.
But most, if not all, of those people were never union members. Guess that's an inconvenient fact which gets in the way of the story John wants out there.
And socially conservative legislators who've voted to support the most profligate pension spending are excused? Guess that's their hall pass.

I thought that was an excellent analysis. However, I still don't think that a 50% pension after 20 years of firefighting, while contributing 9 1/2 % for those twenty years is "grandiose." And Bella makes an excellent point as well.

In theory, judges deserve high pay and pensions because it is very difficult to attract good judicial candidates otherwise, and it is important to maintain the integrity of the positions. In practice, RI fills all the judgeships with 3rd or 4th tier law school hacks with maxed out political campaign contributions to the state Democratic party. Like everything else in this state, the positions become just another sweetheart gift bestowed upon those who unquestioningly serve the corrupt single party.

Dan,

I was not contradicting John’s comments but adding information that was not addressed.

I was pointing out that the RI retirement system has embedded contractually 100% financed federal funds allocated to some employee (union and non-union) that are paid by Federal Government dollars to manage federal programs embedded within State of RI government and the local RI cities and towns.

There will be a problem if General Treasurer Raimondo unilaterally makes cuts to those pensions jeopardizing federal funding to the State of RI.

When Governor Linda Lingle(R) Hawaii Governor ordered all state employees and teachers take furlough Fridays to balance Hawaii state budget she ran into trouble because of Federal/State employees contractually being paid by the federal government their wages and retirement. Under the contracts a set amount is automatically paid to the state, city or town each pay period for the employee’s wages and benefits.

Tommy Cranston,

Actually I allowcate myself $3,000 a month for all bills, food, bar tab and entertainment.

I addressed this once before to AR commenters but for your information how does privately investing for my own retirement sound like? I was paying my own medical because I wanted better insurance and coverage. I also worked private industry and I was a vested federal and non-vested municipal employee but my job was paid by the Federal Government before I accepted the Federal/State of RI management position which I am also vested. My wife and I did a lot of research on retirement and when she was diagnosed “terminally ill” I promised she would have her wish to retire to Hawaii before she passed. We had the financials built up, spent 5-years visiting, researching each Hawaii for island retirement plus backup Island and with the sale of our house at “our asking price” 5-months before the market crash we moved to Hawaii. She died a happy woman! I was able to pay cash for the condominium located in a gated/guarded community with fantastic social amenities walking distance to two 18-hole championship golf courses and a resort overlooking the beach and sunsets with waterfall views out both bedroom windows and new car with leftover to reinvest! Up to $10.5 million estates are behind me and located beachfront.

As far as taxes are concerned Kiplingers.com ranks Hawaii as one of the 10 ten states to retire and RI one of the 10 worst in the nation. Florida is somewhere in between (it is not listed as one of the top 10). In relation to taxes between Florida and Hawaii and due to my age I am paying the highest minimum county property tax (due to the individual island I live and own property as my primary residence on) in the State of Hawaii at $300 a year (I could move to another island purchase a $360,000 residence and pay $150 a year minimum county property tax but I like this island), my retirement income is totally exempt from Hawaii State income tax but not exempt from State of RI as all out of State RI employees retirement systems employees are required to pay RI income tax on that portion derived from RI.

In the State of Hawaii if you meet certain (4) county age and homestead exemptions your minimum property tax can be $25 to $300 a year. If you have a registered historic property at any assessed value say like $80,000,000 you are only required to pay the county minimum tax regardless of your age which could be $25, $100, $150 or $300 a year.

In Hawaii the school system is run by the state financed by state income tax, the general excise tax (4% on all islands except Oahu which has a temporary ½% surcharge to pay for the $5.5 billion high-speed light rail system rescinded in 2027) and fees not by the 4-counties which operate on property tax and user fees.

There is no property tax on cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats in Hawaii.

In Hawaii we are proud to be the most expensive average property in the nation meaning the recession did not affect Hawaii property as much as the mainland however, if you know where to look based on the island you want to live on you can find property lower than what you can purchase in RI. According to the latest U.S. Census count Hawaii gained 12% in overall population.

Hawaii has a 365 day produce growing cycle and most all farm animals for food are bred free range without hormones or feed lot. It is cheaper to go to the daily Farmer’s market or fish docks for food produce than to go to grocery stores and purchase frozen chemically treated food, animal and seafood produce shipped in from the mainland. Local grown and caught taste better and lasts longer in the refrigerator. Average daily temperature is 78 degrees requiring board shorts and T-shirt for dress (beachwear). Lowest temperature is a cold 60 degrees at night during winter. Once your body acclimates to Hawaii climate conditions no air-conditioning is required. I have ceiling fans I might turn on twice a year. My monthly electric bill averages $48 a month.

Yes Hawaii is the most imported oil dependent state in the nation but the state is on a mission to reduce imported oil 70% by year 2030 utilizing alternate energy and energy economy (Hawaii is a designated alternate energy test state by the Department of Energy) . In 2012 Hawaii starts converting to all electric and hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles as the longest straight line drive in Hawaii is 100 miles. TheBus public transit system in Honolulu has be awarded best in nation status twice and I get a yearly unlimited bus pass for $30 a year forcing me to only average 5,000 mile a year on my car.

As for telephone service, all land-line telephone calls to the mainland are unlimited and free to the lower 48 states however lower 48 calling Hawaii are charge a toll call by respective carriers.

So Tommy Cranston my retirement income is a combination of Federal, State of RI (converted municipal time to state) private investment stocks, bonds, mutual funds and social security (which is exempted from Hawaii State income tax) low 4.5% GET (sales tax) with no mortgage or car payments, no winter heating bills, no winter, fall or spring clothing required, very low transportation costs, low insurance costs, low medical costs (Hawaii has lowest medical costs in nation as medical insurance reform was implemented in state 40 years ago; if you work part –time 20 hrs. and wk. you get full medical coverage), low energy costs. low food costs (buy local and not shipped in mainland stuff), low condo association costs, senior citizens (50 years and over) get up to 50% purchases at most establishments, free daily entertainment, concerts and shows including movies provided by city and state for residents, world-wide tourists, all beaches and almost all parks are free with free parking, movie/TV industry utilizing Hawaii as its tropical backlot filming, Walt Disney Company building resort and bringing Disney cruise ships to the islands and visitors spending over $12.3 billion in 2010 into the Hawaii economy to help lower our taxes. That is why Hawaii is called paradise!

In Florida there is no state income tax and the sales tax is 6% but local cities and towns can tack on bringing it up to 7.5%. All property owners can get a up to a $50,000 homestead property tax exemption which the first $25,000 includes school and district taxes and you can get an additional homestead exemption of $25,000 for assessed value between $50,000 to $75,000 but that addition $25,000 does not include local school and district taxes.

Florida cities and towns got to make up the difference somewhere so there is a tack on to the local property and district taxes just like in New Hampshire for schools driving local property taxes up!

Besides, Florida is humid, get a lot of hurricanes adding to house insurance costs, requiring a lot of air-conditioning, has a lot of bugs and gators, high unemployment and gets winter cold weather requiring a house with central heating system.

Ken-

tl;dr

As always.

"I thought that was an excellent analysis. However, I still don't think that a 50% pension after 20 years of firefighting, while contributing 9 1/2 % for those twenty years is "grandiose.""

You might not think it, but let's do the math:

Assuming you make $60K and contribute 9.5%, and the investment earns 6% interest for your 2-year career, you will have saved $215,000. To safely draw $30K (50%) from an account for forty years, you'll need about $600K. Basically, you need a 2:1 'match' on your retirement contributions from the state to retire without requiring 'subsistence' payments from the annual budget (read: higher taxes). That's all fine and good, it's very generous, but it's not insane for you to set aside $6k and your employer to set aside $12K, especially when you have a job like you do that really takes a toll.

Here's the problem: The government didn't put their part of the money away. They actually didn't put -your- part of the money away either, they spent it. So now, instead of paying $60K plus $12K for the young buck who has your old job, the city needs to pay $60K + $12K (for him) PLUS $30K for you to retire, so we're paying 41% more than we should to have fire coverage. Considering that it's possible (and highly likely) that there are -two- generations of retirees for each worker who put twenty years in, that number jumps to 183%.

Anything above 100% puts a lot of pressure on the government to cut corners by not contributing their part or to 'eat' your part, exacerbating the problem. If we really want to dig out from this mess while honoring past agreements, Rhode Island has about forty years of nose-to-the-grindstone heavy lifting to do.

Whoops, typos there: '20 year career', and '83% more', not 183%.

20 years ago the city of Providence hired me, and as a condition of employment guaranteed the pension. It's not up to me to do the math, I figured they had it figured out. I contributed my part, and I fully expect to be paid. If the city falls into insolvency, well then, we have bigger problems than my pension, and I'll worry about it then.

I know, Michael, and It pains me to say that the beneficiaries -and- the taxpayers are likely going to have to split the damages. Paying 1.5 times the expected annual outlay for personnel in a state or town is fiscal-economic murder.

We need laws that -force- funds for upkeep of infrastructure and pensions to be put aside responsibly. I think we might even need judicial oversight of state and town budget planning and implementation.

“What is at stake is the endgame of the so-called Reagan Revolution. A victorious assault on organized labor would settle the matter once and for all. Scott Walker and his ilk know what the stakes are. Thanks to his predations, workers and their allies now know too. …the financialization of contemporary capitalism, the globalization of manufacturing and trade, and, more generally, the world-wide assault on social and economic advances gained at great cost over the past century and a half. The problem, in short, is that to survive, capitalism must expand – and, with so few areas left for expansion, the public sphere has become a target too tempting to resist. What is under attack is the public sphere itself. Public unions are its first (and last?) line of defense.” -- Andrew Levine

Yes, if not for those darned immigrants we'd have all the money we promised you. Our hands are tied against the daunting power of those illegal immigrants and socialists!

Nothing to see here folks. Move along. With love, Your Corporate Overlords.

Yes, Russ. I'm sure if we started having managerial control of hiring, firing, and distribution of raises, the world would end. Plutocratic corporatist oil-mongers will barge into every classroom and state office and tear things apart, public unions are the last chance the poor American worker has. By securing for themselves compensation in the top 20%, they protect the bottom 80% from abuse by the oligarchs in power. I get it now.

I love the way Russ quotes Leftist propaganda pieces to us as though we are supposed to accept them as the impartial, authoritative analysis.

We're not as dumb as your libtard allies, Russ.

Oh,come on -Russ isn't some demon-he just doesn't get it.
I think I'm beginning to.

and russ-I'm not sure how illegal aliens figure into this particular discusion.Maybe you ought to bring up the Palestinians-it would have the same degree of non-relevance.

"We need laws that -force- funds for upkeep of infrastructure and pensions to be put aside responsibly."

Mangeek, it's a good thirty years too late for that, if it even was feasible back then. Dems (who have controlled the General Assembly with an iron fist for the last 70 year) chose not to do the necessary funding for the last three decades.

The point that everyone (with half a brain) has been making is that no amount of taxation can now make up for that failure by the state legislature to actually take the necessary steps to fulfill the promises they made. Again, probably the benefits were too generous to start with to ever be feasible. Now, there's no question that they are not feasible, in large part, because that money had to be working (i.e., invested) for the last several decades, not sitting in a drawer in the form of an IOU.

Amazingly, the public employee unions have taken no steps to protect their own future. This is not a new discussion and yet there has rarely been any talk of any extension of vesting time, minimum retirement age, or increased contribution by the rank and file. This is their golden egg and the should be doing whatever possible to protect it but their only response is to push back. State government's funding failure is a big factor in the unfunded liability but the blame game won't save your pension.