We'll see if anything comes of it. I won't be holding my breath.

Firefighters convicted to date: 0
Fraudulent pension money returned to date: 0

I hope they keep the train rolling right into social security disability fraud.

Yeah Morse those $700 a month SSI checks are busting the system not the $15,000 a MONTH compounded "disability" checks members of your scumbag union get.

Hmm, I guess criminal acts are okay as long as the money involved is lower. Nice moral compass there, scumbag.

"Yeah Morse those $700 a month SSI checks are busting the system"

That makes it ok? The social security system is perfectly solvent? No money problems whatsoever even after fraud is figured in?

Well that makes me feel better then.

Tommy Cranston-add up all the SSI rip offs going on in just one public housing project in this state and then compare it to the allegedly rampant fraud in the firefighter pension system you claim. Its safe to say the biggest fraudulent use of your tax dollars is coming from SSI. Where's your outrage!

Sierra1, try not to take these guys seriously. I started commenting here five years ago, thinking my views would help expand the idea that not all union members were liberal, socialist morons. I've seen a lot of people come and go over the years, the recent bag of turds is by far the least interesting of the lot.

If we continue to offer facts and some common sense views from "our" side, I thought "their" side would get off their high horse, and we could do a little give and take in the hope of getting this state back on track.

Problem is, the more I gave, the more they attacked. "They" are their own worst enemy. This blog has the potential to be great, and the contributors do a good job throwing debate worthy topics out there.

Hopefully more Mangeeks and Patricks, and, as much as this makes me want to puke on my keyboard, Dans, will come aboard, and the Capelli's and Tommy Cranstons will go away.

Sierra - You and Tommy are both correct here, depending on how you look at the issue. The largest amounts of tax dollars per individual case are, by far, coming from the retirees from Michael's fire department. You are, however, correct that the SSI fraud going in the state is most likely larger in aggregate. Presumably, the state would get more return on its investigatory investment by going after the "heroes" first, but both areas ultimately need to be addressed to stop the financial hemorrhaging.

Michael - You will know when you have found truth because it will first offend you. You rightfully respond to Mike Cappelli and Tommy Cranston with dismissal, because they argue from pure hatred and outrage. The fact that they and 100's of commenters on Projo.com and Boston.com have come to feel this way, however, indicates that your department is suffering from a significant image problem that you and your union would do well to address, instead of fanning the flames by "fighting back" as you do here on a daily basis. I know that my own arguments regarding corrupt "closed shop" forced union legislation and the right-to-work alternative, disability pension statistics, nepotism and favor trading by RI union bosses, and specific cases of fraud and abuse in the state are hitting home because you respond to me with anger and offense - prime indicators of a bruised ego and that gnawing subconscious suspicion that maybe you and your union aren't exactly part of the grand solution as you always thought you were. I do not blame you for the progressive public policy disaster that is occurring in Rhode Island, but I do ask that you take some responsibility for fixing the mess. I haven't seen that happen yet, and when you make statements like "I just go to work" and "I fully expect to be paid when I retire" just shows me how clueless and childish you still are about this subject. Not good enough anymore, Michael. The state is dying and your specific union has been part of the problem. If you don't understand why yet then you simply haven't been listening.

I don't get it, Dan, I really don't. How can you possibly expect me to believe that the union I believe in and support is responsible for the downfall of my state? You really need to reconsider your position, but especially re-evaluate your perceived enemy on this issue. I've told you before, over and over and over why I support Local 799, and the reasons for it. Because you disagree with that reasoning does not make you right.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't worry or be impressed by comments sections of newspapers. That brain trust is an embarrassment to society.

Michael -

Rhode Island is a closed shop state in which public union participation is mandatory. Taxes are high and the state is going bankrupt.

My current state, Virginia, is a right-to-work state in which public union participation is voluntary. Taxes are low and we ran a surplus last year.

View a map of the states by per capita budget deficit and compare it to a map of closed-shop union states versus right-to-work states and there is near 1:1 correspondence.

Do you see some kind of causal connection in all this, do you believe that it is merely coincidental based on political affiliation, or do you simply not know?

Michael-you're right. Sometimes they get my Irish up and I can't help but take the bait.

"I hope they keep the train rolling right into social security disability fraud."

YES.

Yes also to the suggestion on a prior thread to cut way back on foreign aid (though it doesn't pertain to Rhode Island's problems).

"Yes also to the suggestion on a prior thread to cut way back on foreign aid"

While I don't completely disagree with this, cutting foreign aid is still a matter of scale. It really is hard to wrap our brains around how much money the US deals with. Here's an example. Using wikipedia as my source, in 2006, the US spent about $22B in foreign aid and spent $16B on NASA's budget. Wikipedia says that the NASA expenditure is about 0.57% of the total federal budget, so what's the foreign aid? About 0.75%? We can add the two together and not even get to 1.5% of the entire budget?

I've told others that I'm completely in favor of eliminating NASA as a government entity. That'll save us about $20B this year alone. I'd call up Richard Branson and tell him it's all his to do as he'd wish. He'd have a great time and probably do far more with it than they have been doing.

As for foreign aid, I do think some is necessary. As sad as it sounds, the US does need to pay "protection money" to avoid problems and keep other pipelines for commerce open. Sure, we can protect ourselves just fine with the military, but this is more of "an ounce of prevention to avoid a pound of cure".

But back to the original post, yes, take a look at all government fraud going on. Union pensions, elected leaders' pensions, judge pensions, social security. Heck, why is it Channel 12 that keeps rooting out people sleeping on the job and not their supervisors? Why do supervisors get a pass when these people are not doing their job? Let's have some accountability.

I am very curious as to how "right to work" states operate versus "closed shop" states. I have never belonged to a union, but have friends and family who have and do belong to unions - public and private - with various degrees of satisfaction. Some are "die-hard believers" who think that unions are the greatest thing ever and others just pay their dues because they have to in order to hold their jobs, but don't feel they get much in return. I'd love to know how a non-mandatory union state operates as far as what the non-union employees do when it comes to wages and benefits. Do they automatically reap the benefits of the union negotiations? Are they looked on unfavorably by their union co-workers?

Wages and benefits level out to around market level in a mixed union/non-union work environment because the union is in competition with and therefore checked by the non-union workers. The employer still cannot abuse the workers or unjustly cut wages, however, because then more employees voluntarily choose to join the union and protest the employer's actions in solidarity. Conversely, if the union gets taken over by antagonistic radicals who create a negative relationship with the employer, employees are incentivized to leave the union and negotiate separately with the employer who will presumably be quite happy to do so and undermine the adversarial union. Some argue that right-to-work creates a "free rider" problem because many positive workplace conditions like safety and comfort affect everyone even if they were not part of the negotiation. The union is still acting in the best interests of its members in doing so, however, so I don't see why this is a problem. Most of the really egregious employer abuses of the past have been made illegal anyway through labor laws and our employment culture has changed to disincentivize that sort of employee treatment in most markets.

I'm employed in the federal system which isn't exactly the same, but is right-to-work in effect. Most of the union members are fine with the arrangement, but some of the older union members are hardcore believers and can get really nasty toward us non-union employees. They try to intimidate and shame, but they're just a bad joke around the office and all the directors hate them so they never get anywhere. I personally think you'd have to be crazy to join our union because I really like our management and the union is constantly at war with them over incredibly petty issues like whether somebody has to come in at 9:30 or 10:00AM or whether they need a doctor's note to stay out sick when they've used up all their sick leave. I think I get a better shake by not joining, so I don't and save my $500-1000/year. Others think they are getting something out of it, so they still contribute.

"They try to intimidate and shame, but they're just a bad joke around the office and all the directors hate them so they never get anywhere."

That's young Dan describing dues paying union workers.

They never get anywhere. You don't say.

More from Dan....
"I personally think you'd have to be crazy to join our union because I really like our management and the union is constantly at war with them over incredibly petty issues like whether somebody has to come in at 9:30 or 10:00AM or whether they need a doctor's note to stay out sick when they've used up all their sick leave."

I think Dan would change his tune if management started to investigate how blogging workers were spending their time.

This is priceless...

"I think I get a better shake by not joining, so I don't and save my $500-1000/year."

That's really the issue after all. The cheap little bastard gets a free ride.

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