In-State Tuition Raises Larger Question About Social "Investment"
Justin Katz
In a Providence Journal op-ed (which now apparently inevitably means "not online"), Sandy Riojas and Daniel Harrop argue in favor of in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. The first part of their argument is that President Ronald Reagan would have supported their side of the debate.
As admirable and iconic as Reagan may have been, a former president's view of a current state policy question is effectively irrelevant. And besides, it's not as if illegal immigration and in-state tuition are recent developments, so one might well reply: Forget "would have"; the applicable question is, "did he?" I've not seen the evidence.
More interesting, however, is the view of government and higher education that Riojas and Harrop promulgate:
There are Rhode Island Republicans who believe the state wastes its investment when it educates undocumented students through high school and then forces them to pay hiogher prices to attend a public college. Is high school graduation the milestone when these students are penalized for unknowingly entering the country illegally?
... [Subsidizing in-state tuition, the] state ultimately loses nothing, while gaining a greater proportion of the population that is college-educated and can participate in improving the future of Rhode Island.
Is high school really so worthless that a graduate cannot "participate in improving" the state? I'd argue that such an attitude, with the concomitant increase in the subsidization that the government provides for higher education, is what's driven the unsustainable inflation of tuition across the board. A high school diploma is, or ought to be, valuable in its own right, and any reasonable assessment of the actual skills needed in the workforce will likely conclude that it is sufficient for a great many jobs. So, yes, a high school diploma may, indeed, be the line after which the local society should consider legal residency status.
A precondition to both the development of the economy and the improvement of the state and nation as civic units is that the rules apply. Individuals and private organizations can bend them, but the state — with its ability to apply force and confiscate property — cannot. Putting aside the fact that subsidizing in-state tuition does, undeniably, cost the state something, the greater cost may lie in the lesson that doing so for illegal immigrants teaches about the validity of the rule of law.
Listen to the word games these supporters have to play: The state "forces" the individuals to pay higher prices. The students are "penalized." It's all intellectual dishonesty - neither is remotely true in any meaningful sense of these words.
They can't discuss the issue at face value without throwing in these inaccurate characterizations to make it an emotional debate instead of a rational one. Progressivism 101.
Dr. Silber, former pResident of B .U. "When we decided everyone should graduate from High School, we implicitly lowered the standards".
Dr. Silber, former pResident of B .U. "When we decided everyone should graduate from High School, we implicitly lowered the standards".
Thanks Justin and Dan. You're both right on.The Projo article was nothing more than flagrant PANDERING to Hispanics. By the way how many Illegal Alien children were applying to college in 1986. The Illegal Alien population consists of Aliens from throughout the world not just Hispanics as the article would lead one to believe. The article their quotes were from was an NPR article on July 4 2010 titled " A Reagan Legacy: Amnesty for Illegal Immigrants". The overall opinion of that amnesty was that it was a total FAILURE. The article could be a lesson in Politics 101. Just cherry pick the parts that support your point of view and disregard the rest. This article is particularly onerous in that it attempts to put words in the mouth of a deceased person. I must firmly believe that the article is solely the opinion of it's two authors and prayerfully not the entire RIGOP. However THEIR silence is deafening. If this isn't PANDERING then just maybe we should get on the ELVIS ISN'T DEAD bandwagon.
"Is high school really so worthless that a graduate cannot 'participate in improving' the state?"
Ah, yes, the "who will cut my lawn if we educate the best and brightest of the these children" argument. At least we agree that Reagan's views are irrelevant (I might have suggested "hopelessly inadequate" but irrelevant works).
Cut the "undocumented" word.
They're illegal aliens. Cockroaches, maggots, vampires, parasites.
The useful idiots of "Occupy" are too brainwashed by their professors to realize that the destruction of America is taking place, in large part, by the open borders socialism they advocate.
Welfare state.
Open borders.
Forget political preference - it is economically *impossible* for a modern economy to support both of these policies. Pick one, progressives. Or preferably, zero.
"Is high school really so worthless that a graduate cannot 'participate in improving' the state?"
Ask my girlfriend. She couldn't find High School grads who can read and write well enough to put on the payroll (child-care jobs paying $10-12/hr).
mangeek,
Get in touch with me. I know several HS grads who can handle the King's English and who are looking for work. Please have your girlfriend get in touch with me. I'll be happy to recommend several.
OldTimeLefty
“who will cut my lawn if we educate the best and brightest”?
---- Seriously? This isn’t even about to education. It’s about giving benefits to “illegal aliens”. How would feel about giving them equal access to unions? The dialogue seems to change about them – against all trade agreements (hurting illegal aliens in favor of citizens) but want believe illegal aliens to receive the same the benefits as citizens in terms of college education. Maybe if you considered colleges as “big business” then you might see it differently.
Posted by leprechaun
"By the way how many Illegal Alien children were applying to college in 1986."
Hard as it might seem to believe, in 1986 the largest group of "Illegals" in the Northeast were Irish.
If it's not online, as far as I'm concerned, it's not relevant for significant discussion online.
I haven't been a subscriber to the Projo for about 4 years now. I'm not going to resubscribe to the Dead Tree Edition for the "privilege" of debating anything.
That being said, I think you would find the overwhelming super-majority of Republicans would have a far different take on this issue.
Perhaps this is something that could be discussed in some detail at the next RIGOP meeting.
Relevant Russ.......what are your rates? My lawn is almost an acre with an acute downhill slope and a great view of Greece.
Justin, how I wish you submitted this as a letter or op-ed piece to the PROJO; it's brilliant.
Justin, how I wish you submitted this as a letter or op-ed piece to the PROJO; it's brilliant.
Hey,mangeek. I'm a high school dropout who got a GED and went on on to get a few semesters of college. Those semesters didn't contribute to my literacy in any way. LOL!!!!!!!!
I think I am literate. Refer to my previous posts and decide for yourself. If she wants to hire me at those wages,I'm interested,although I cannot work long hours because I have COPD.
Mangeek,by the way,$10-12 an hour is far more than I have ever made in my life.
Dumb,illiterate fool that I am.
Also,mangeek,when I was in high school I took some tests and scored in the top 1% of the country on those tests.
If you would like,I'll send you copies of the results.
But I had to drop out because of extreme poverty.
Whew!! With the Missin Linc at least RI does not have to worry about this:
"MIAMI, Fla. (CBS Tampa) – Children of illegal immigrants living in Florida are suing the state for charging them out-of-state tuition."
We can now truly say that RI is on the cutting edge....of bankruptcy.
"the greater cost may lie in the lesson that doing so for illegal immigrants teaches about the validity of the rule of law"
What does refusing to enforce our immigration laws do to the "rule of law"? Why should I obey a speed limit, or Building Code?
An illegal alien has two rights-a right to a K-12 education by virtue of a SCOTUS decision and due process under the US Constitution-and NOTHING ELSE!!
The rationale is that the illegal aliens went through primary and or high school here,therefore it's only right to give them in-state tuition,you know because they deserve it and will be a wonderful asset to society. When they start graduating in great numbers,it will only be right to give them citizenship.
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Listen to the word games these supporters have to play: The state "forces" the individuals to pay higher prices. The students are "penalized." It's all intellectual dishonesty - neither is remotely true in any meaningful sense of these words.
They can't discuss the issue at face value without throwing in these inaccurate characterizations to make it an emotional debate instead of a rational one. Progressivism 101.
Posted by: Dan at November 1, 2011 7:57 AMDr. Silber, former pResident of B .U. "When we decided everyone should graduate from High School, we implicitly lowered the standards".
Posted by: Warrington Faust at November 1, 2011 8:02 AMDr. Silber, former pResident of B .U. "When we decided everyone should graduate from High School, we implicitly lowered the standards".
Posted by: Warrington Faust at November 1, 2011 8:02 AMThanks Justin and Dan. You're both right on.The Projo article was nothing more than flagrant PANDERING to Hispanics. By the way how many Illegal Alien children were applying to college in 1986. The Illegal Alien population consists of Aliens from throughout the world not just Hispanics as the article would lead one to believe. The article their quotes were from was an NPR article on July 4 2010 titled " A Reagan Legacy: Amnesty for Illegal Immigrants". The overall opinion of that amnesty was that it was a total FAILURE. The article could be a lesson in Politics 101. Just cherry pick the parts that support your point of view and disregard the rest. This article is particularly onerous in that it attempts to put words in the mouth of a deceased person. I must firmly believe that the article is solely the opinion of it's two authors and prayerfully not the entire RIGOP. However THEIR silence is deafening. If this isn't PANDERING then just maybe we should get on the ELVIS ISN'T DEAD bandwagon.
Posted by: leprechaun at November 1, 2011 10:45 AM"Is high school really so worthless that a graduate cannot 'participate in improving' the state?"
Ah, yes, the "who will cut my lawn if we educate the best and brightest of the these children" argument. At least we agree that Reagan's views are irrelevant (I might have suggested "hopelessly inadequate" but irrelevant works).
Posted by: Russ at November 1, 2011 11:21 AMCut the "undocumented" word.
Posted by: Tommy Cranston at November 1, 2011 11:24 AMThey're illegal aliens. Cockroaches, maggots, vampires, parasites.
The useful idiots of "Occupy" are too brainwashed by their professors to realize that the destruction of America is taking place, in large part, by the open borders socialism they advocate.
Welfare state.
Open borders.
Forget political preference - it is economically *impossible* for a modern economy to support both of these policies. Pick one, progressives. Or preferably, zero.
Posted by: Dan at November 1, 2011 11:37 AM"Is high school really so worthless that a graduate cannot 'participate in improving' the state?"
Ask my girlfriend. She couldn't find High School grads who can read and write well enough to put on the payroll (child-care jobs paying $10-12/hr).
Posted by: mangeek at November 1, 2011 12:07 PMmangeek,
Posted by: OldTimeLefty at November 1, 2011 12:26 PMGet in touch with me. I know several HS grads who can handle the King's English and who are looking for work. Please have your girlfriend get in touch with me. I'll be happy to recommend several.
OldTimeLefty
“who will cut my lawn if we educate the best and brightest”?
Posted by: msteven at November 1, 2011 12:45 PM---- Seriously? This isn’t even about to education. It’s about giving benefits to “illegal aliens”. How would feel about giving them equal access to unions? The dialogue seems to change about them – against all trade agreements (hurting illegal aliens in favor of citizens) but want believe illegal aliens to receive the same the benefits as citizens in terms of college education. Maybe if you considered colleges as “big business” then you might see it differently.
Posted by leprechaun
"By the way how many Illegal Alien children were applying to college in 1986."
Hard as it might seem to believe, in 1986 the largest group of "Illegals" in the Northeast were Irish.
Posted by: Warrington Faust at November 1, 2011 12:56 PMIf it's not online, as far as I'm concerned, it's not relevant for significant discussion online.
I haven't been a subscriber to the Projo for about 4 years now. I'm not going to resubscribe to the Dead Tree Edition for the "privilege" of debating anything.
That being said, I think you would find the overwhelming super-majority of Republicans would have a far different take on this issue.
Perhaps this is something that could be discussed in some detail at the next RIGOP meeting.
Posted by: Will at November 1, 2011 4:03 PMRelevant Russ.......what are your rates? My lawn is almost an acre with an acute downhill slope and a great view of Greece.
Posted by: ANTHONY at November 1, 2011 8:49 PMJustin, how I wish you submitted this as a letter or op-ed piece to the PROJO; it's brilliant.
Posted by: Margaret at November 2, 2011 1:36 AMJustin, how I wish you submitted this as a letter or op-ed piece to the PROJO; it's brilliant.
Posted by: Margaret at November 2, 2011 1:36 AMHey,mangeek. I'm a high school dropout who got a GED and went on on to get a few semesters of college. Those semesters didn't contribute to my literacy in any way. LOL!!!!!!!!
I think I am literate. Refer to my previous posts and decide for yourself. If she wants to hire me at those wages,I'm interested,although I cannot work long hours because I have COPD.
Posted by: helen at November 2, 2011 1:13 PMMangeek,by the way,$10-12 an hour is far more than I have ever made in my life.
Dumb,illiterate fool that I am.
Posted by: helen at November 2, 2011 1:18 PMAlso,mangeek,when I was in high school I took some tests and scored in the top 1% of the country on those tests.
If you would like,I'll send you copies of the results.
But I had to drop out because of extreme poverty.
Posted by: helen at November 2, 2011 1:22 PMWhew!! With the Missin Linc at least RI does not have to worry about this:
"MIAMI, Fla. (CBS Tampa) – Children of illegal immigrants living in Florida are suing the state for charging them out-of-state tuition."
We can now truly say that RI is on the cutting edge....of bankruptcy.
Posted by: ANTHONY at November 2, 2011 3:44 PM"the greater cost may lie in the lesson that doing so for illegal immigrants teaches about the validity of the rule of law"
What does refusing to enforce our immigration laws do to the "rule of law"? Why should I obey a speed limit, or Building Code?
Posted by: Warrington Faust at November 2, 2011 5:24 PMAn illegal alien has two rights-a right to a K-12 education by virtue of a SCOTUS decision and due process under the US Constitution-and NOTHING ELSE!!
Posted by: joe bernstein at November 2, 2011 5:26 PM
Posted by: helen at November 3, 2011 1:43 PMThe rationale is that the illegal aliens went through primary and or high school here,therefore it's only right to give them in-state tuition,you know because they deserve it and will be a wonderful asset to society. When they start graduating in great numbers,it will only be right to give them citizenship.