Checking Out of the Race

The Lonely Conservative (being from New York state) has posted an email from an online acquaintance that voices a sentiment with which increasing numbers of us are surely familiar:

And I watch countless news stories about people who are criminals (illegal aliens, felons) liars, cheats, or just stupid getting help with their mortgage loans because they “need it”. And people getting free medical services because they “need it”. And people declaring bankruptcy because it’s just too hard to pay the bills, they “need to”. All the while I see my government crushing people like me–expecting us to just keep doing, just keep paying, just keep being responsible in order to make up for all of those people who were not.

My mind has drifted in much the same direction as I’ve watched the mail, eager for all of my tax documents to come in so that I can get the refund that will make me able to stop the calls from collection agents. It would have saved us substantial money in late fees to have had that money dispersed with our regular paychecks, rather than siphoned off as a free loan for wild-spending governments.
Some substantial mistakes on my family’s part have made us slaves to debt, and it is a daily temptation just to walk away. As it is, we’ve pared our lives down to minimal expense, and frankly, as we offload the debt, I’m planning to use that space to ease my workload rather than chase lifestyle improvements. Productivity just isn’t worth it, unless it’s in line with something that you’re passionate about regardless of pay.
The receding economy has revealed some stones that lay just below the water, and the blogger above suggests that the sight of them is changing Americans’ perception:

My friend is the “Forgotten Man” of our day. Most of us are. How far away are any of us from feeling just as she does? It’s one thing to go through these challenges knowing we’re all going through it. But we aren’t all going through it. Because we now have four Americas:
1-The public employee union class
2-The entitled/welfare class
3-The elite ruling class
4-The rest of us who are paying dearly to support #s 1, 2 and 3

In my industry, I’ve watched employees eager for layoffs, who game the system to get back some of what they’ve invested in it. One contractor recently expressed his disapproval of that tendency, calling it immoral to leach of the system and pass the buck on to him. I was actually surprised at my own disagreement. Until very recently, I’d have nodded along; now, I have to admit sympathy for the opposing view.
It’s most definitely wrong to pass the burden of one’s galtishness on to those who are still striving to produce, but it’s all too easy to see the target as the giant tumor of a system that lays across us all, taking the money that would allow us to repair windshields and fill oil tanks in order to finance lavish benefits and years of unemployment checks and then borrowing money from our future labor and that of our children and grandchildren in order to bolster public-sector employees through the recession and promise the time-delayed boon of pensions.
We’re all limited in the length of our view, especially when it comes to social and cultural matters. We can only know so many people and have personal experience with so many walks of life. I do worry, though that something in that unique American attitude is changing, and it won’t be healthy for anybody involved. It’s not too late — I have faith — but much will depend on the ways in which our leaders address the various crises that we now face.

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Bob
Bob
10 years ago

Justin,
Can you elaborate on who the “elite ruling class” is?

michael
michael
10 years ago

Last time I looked at my pay stub I was paying just as much as everybody else who works. Public employee class. That’s a good one.

BobN
BobN
10 years ago

Michael, if it weren’t for the corrupt, gold-plated special deals for the public employee class, your paycheck and mine would both have less taken out of them.
I trust that you would like that.

triplerichard
triplerichard
10 years ago

Micheal, don’t you realize that you are a vital cog in the evil machine that is out to destroy the nation. You and all the other leaches in the fire dept, government workers and teachers unions are trying to rob America. You should do what you do for less and you should be happy to even have a job.

Patrick
Patrick
10 years ago

“Last time I looked at my pay stub I was paying just as much as everybody else who works.”
Yep, that’s exactly the point. And what will you get back in terms of pension and health coverage? A lot more than I will, who is paying just as much as you.
See the problem? You and I pay the same, but only you get the benefit. People shouldn’t be grumpy about that?

Warrington Faust
Warrington Faust
10 years ago

This has been around for some time, I believe it is known as “soak the rich”. With time,the definition of “rich” changes.
“the public employee class” Today’s Boston Herald notes all the Mass Pike toll takers making over $100,000. As I recall, union work rules allow them to steal $200 a day. This because of a rule that they cannot be investigated for a shortfall of less than $200 a day.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_0204some_toll_takers_raking_in_100g/srvc=home&position=1

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

“See the problem? You and I pay the same, but only you get the benefit. People shouldn’t be grumpy about that?”
Michael’s cut and paste response will be that private sector compensation is “too low” (because of the CEOs or something…) and that we should be focusing on bringing private sector wages up rather than his own wages down. His conclusion then being that the only way to correct this “market failure” (gross progressive misuse of the term) is through government central planning.
His evidence that private sector wages are too low? He personally thinks they are.
His evidence that the market-based compensation is flawed? People he personally doesn’t value, like Britney Spears, earn lots of money.
His evidence that his own salary is fair and sustainable? He personally thinks it is.
In other words, enlightened despotism, philosopher kings, authoritarianism, call it what you will.

michael
michael
10 years ago

I’m aware that I’m in the enemy camp, however, your contention that public union contracts are “corrupt and gold plated,” is wrong, unsubstantiated and evidence of a brainwashed public whose opinions have gone unchecked far too long.
There is zero evidence of corruption in any public contracts. Negotiations follow the letter of the law, and if you don’t like it, you are in the wrong country. We all have rights, and we all follow the law, and to make claims that my compensation is dirty because you say it is has gone on long enough.
The opinions expressed here concerning the nature of you fellow human beings is pathetic. People are intrinsically good, and honest, and want what is best for everybody. If I had to spend a minute inside the soul of the depressed, cynical and just plain rotten commentators here I’d call it quits.

michael
michael
10 years ago

And I happen to like Britney Spears

Patrick
Patrick
10 years ago

Michael, are you not a big fan of generalizations? “your contention”, “The opinions expressed here”
“People are intrinsically good, and honest, and want what is best for everybody.”
Actually, that’s not true. The opposite is actually true. Intrinsically, people look out for themselves. It’s a learned behavior to look out for others.
Ever been stuck somewhere and needed help and watched as people either walked or drove by? I wouldn’t say that everyone wants what’s best for everyone.

michael
michael
10 years ago

I’m definitely in the enemy camp. I stop and help people. And the people I choose to spend my time with do the same.
Thanks for helping make my point.

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

Corruption doesn’t just come in the form of illegality and bribery, Michael. It can be anything that subverts open, conscientious, and impartial government. “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” deals are a form of corruption, and your contract is the poisoned fruit of those backdoor dealings. The arbitration system that rubber stamps unsustainable yearly compensation increases is also completely immoral and broken, i.e., corrupt. The problems inherent in the system are immediately obvious to anyone who understands how arbitrators are selected and reselected over time.
People aren’t inherently good or evil. They are inherently just people and then act certain ways because of their biology, experiences, and environment. When we set up an environment with all the wrong incentives, it becomes a major problem. Actually, I don’t fault anyone for simply responding to incentives. I fault those who created the incentives in the first place.

Mike Cappelli
Mike Cappelli
10 years ago

michael,
Facts are stubborn things. And the fact is that there are plenty of folks ready, willing and able to do your job, and most public employment jobs, for half the pay and benefits.
Understandably, they have a tough time rationalizing overpaying so much in such difficult times. It is something that has been building for years, and we are at the tipping point.
As if that wasn’t bad enough, additionally we see your comrades gaming the system to retire with unearned benefits via that latest little scam of asking for a demotion so they can then retire with a better COLA – that none of us get.
When those clowns try to claim they are going to be paid less – for what one month – they must think we are really stupid and that is all the more galling.
Funny how they both have retired now. Like that wasn’t their plan all along.
Face it, michael, their is plenty of good reason for the outrage against you and your coworkers and it is not going away any time soon. It is only growing as the microscope focuses in on all the reasons for why we are in such dire straits.

michael
michael
10 years ago

I’ve been hearing this for twenty years, nothing has changed for a reason. You are all full of it. Contracts are negotiated, we get paid. Colas are everywhere, social security, private company pensions included.
My guess is I’ll still be hearing about the end of the world and bankruptcy and the collapse of the free market economy twenty years from now.
If the economy collapses, we’ll all be in the same boat.

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

Michael, you miss the entire point of the article and repeat the same old reckless fallacies that led to our current crisis.
Nothing is a problem until it is a problem.
There is no collapse until there is a collapse.
Nothing ever changes until it changes.
Read The Black Swan by Nassim Taleb. Your complacency and blind trust is not only foolish, it is dangerous.
Consider: the housing market was completely solvent until it was completely insolvent.
Everything is catching up with Rhode Island NOW. There are no more political tomorrows for these issues to be dealt with.

BobN
BobN
10 years ago

Michael finds it convenient to ignore the system corruption of powerful, well-financed union bosses giving campaign money and other favors to elected officials in exchange for state laws that mandate exactly the kinds of “benefits” that are “negotiated” in a completely unfair process.
Let’s remove the entire section of RI general law that creates the “closed shop” system and allow employers including the state to hire union and non-union employees on an equal basis. When the public sector unions are forced to compete on a fair ground, then we’ll see what a fairly negotiated contract looks like.
Until then, bleating about “negotiated contracts” in a system that we all know is corruptly manipulated in favor of the unions is dishonest, Michael.

Mike Cappelli
Mike Cappelli
10 years ago

michael,
When Rhode Island goes bust, there are no fences keeping people in. Those that can will leave. Those that cannot will remain to be further extorted in an attempt to make good on your pensions and healthcare.
Just what do you imagine is the demographic profile of those you will be left to depend on to support the pensions you have been promised?
I’ll have taken my money to North Carolina.
You’ll be left to the mercy of the City of Providence and the State of Rhode Island with its’ third world charm.
You want to bet we’ll be in the same boat?

David S
David S
10 years ago

Sie ist anchorrising goofballs so voraussagbar. Justin wirft das rote Fleisch aus und Sie essen Burschen es auf. Vielen Dank Michael, aus Ihrem Grund Erwiderungen.

Ken
Ken
10 years ago

Mike Cappelli,
Actually you would be better off in South Carolina which is ranked by Kiplinger.com as one of the 10-most tax friendly states for retirees than in North Carolina.
Also North Carolina is ranked # 5 most corrupt state in nation by “The Daily Beast.com” 2010 poll with South Carolina ranked #9 and Rhode Island #27 out of 50 states (Tennessee is #1 corrupt state).
According to the New York Times that did 3 different corruption polls based on guilty officials, guilty per capita and journalist perception in 2008 North Carolina ranked #17, #36 and #26 compared to South Carolina rankings #33, 43 and #22 and Rhode Island #49, #34 and #1 (according the 3 polls Florida is #1 or District of Columbia is #1 or Rhode Island is #1): nytimes.com/2008/12/14/weekinreview/14marsh.html?_r=1

Justin Katz
Justin Katz
10 years ago

Bob,
Re: “elite ruling class.” That’s part of a quotation from somebody else, but I’d say, at the very least, that one can include those well-to-do folks who never find cause to seek employment outside of government. One could arguably include the broader field of rich and disconnected.

Justin Katz
Justin Katz
10 years ago

Michael,
The corruption is intrinsic and legal. Unions not only have a role in negotiations, they also have a role in electoral politics. That is, not only can they negotiate as a group for their contractual desires, they can work to elect the people who sit on the other side of the table. That’s corruption.
The state’s teachers’ unions have put a giant explanation point on the problem by stacking the Board of Regents, meaning that they now have a powerful role in negotiations, in electing the people with whom they’ll be negotiation, and determining the policies that negotiations must address.

BobN
BobN
10 years ago

Nice to see your true colors showing, David S.
Perhaps nobody told you that the image on the cover of Jonah Goldberg’s book wasn’t meant as a role model.

Ken
Ken
10 years ago

Justin,
Look at my comments to Mike Cappelli.
The State of Rhode Island is nominated for the “Sainthood Award” when it comes to government corruption compared to other states according to the actual numbers. Not by one poll but by 2 separate polls covering 4 different ways looking at the available supporting data.
The only people that seem to think Rhode Island government, unions (by the way RI in a minor player when it comes to unions) and the state as a whole is the most corrupt state in the nation are journalist and Anchor Rising readers/commenters.
All this talk about alleged corruption does a disservice to the state image, its people and the ability to attract out of state business into the state.

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

Ken – those numbers mean nothing. I don’t think the fact that we have a lack of political corruption convictions will come as a surprise to anyone. We have a politically connected AG’s office that won’t even go after the blatantly corrupt Central Falls mayor and solicits political contributions from applicants for prosecutor jobs. We also have very few politicians per capita, in case you’ve forgotten.
Your baseless assertion that Rhode Island is a “minor player” when it comes to unions is laughable. RI teachers unions are the envy of even the MA teachers unions. Their power is practically unmatched in other states.

Ken
Ken
10 years ago

Dan,
I did not create those numbers or the polls but have to defer to the New York Times and The Daily Beast who collected the information and produced the 4 studies of the information 2008 to 2010 to account for the rankings and state placements.
As far as Rhode Island, unionization and my belief that Rhode Island is a minor player according to: Best and Worst States (which uses Bureau of Labor Standards data says it best: blog.bestandworststates.com/2010/02/06/state-unionism-rankings-and-jobs.aspx
Rhode Island is ranked as one of the 5 bottom seabed dwellers (actual ranking out of 5 is #3) “Worst States For Employment and Union Participation” in the nation.
Nationwide Rhode Island is ranked #7 in 2009 for union participation at 18.7%.
The top 5 unionized 2009 states in the nation are New York, Hawaii, Alaska, Washington and Michigan in that order.
Like I indicated all this continued talk about how corrupt Rhode Island is does a great disservice to the state, population and those private business that would move into the state bolstering the workforce moving Rhode Island out of recession.
Dan you can personally discount the facts all you want and assert factual information presented by others is “baseless assertion” but when the numbers are in and the actual written reports and polls are published by reportable sources its case closed!

Monique
Editor
10 years ago

“We have a politically connected AG’s office that won’t even go after the blatantly corrupt Central Falls mayor and solicits political contributions from applicants for prosecutor jobs.”
Dan, are you talking about the current AG or the prior? Because that first item is the perfect description of Patrick Lynch’s handling of the CF board up scandal – Patrick Lynch, who redefined “recuse” to mean, “if it’s one of my buddies, I ain’t investigating, no matter how bad the whole thing stinks”.

Max Diesel
Max Diesel
10 years ago

Maybe the low conviction rate speaks more to a lack of enforcement than a lack of corruption.

Ken
Ken
10 years ago

Max Diesel,
How do you adjust for the 4 different ways the two studies looked at the data from 2008 to 2010?
Each one provides a different outcome except for pre conceived perception of the journalist!

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

Ken, you don’t even know what the studies you are citing mean. A “unionism” ranking has nothing to do with how powerful they are politically. I work with BLS very closely in my job and they are a joke anyway. I know you have some kind of autistic obsession with numbers and rankings that goes beyond this issue and somehow relates everything back to Hawaii, but you can’t just vomit up some “study,” interpret it how you want, and expect me to be impressed.

michael
michael
10 years ago

Why can’t he? Everybody else around here does.
“The corruption is intrinsic and legal. Unions not only have a role in negotiations, they also have a role in electoral politics. That is, not only can they negotiate as a group for their contractual desires, they can work to elect the people who sit on the other side of the table. That’s corruption.”
What do you suggest, Justin? Take away the right to vote when you join a union, or take away the right to join a union. Sounds like a place I’d want to live.
There is nothing corrupt about my compensation. Nothing. I’m no longer entertaining the notion that I’m somehow complicit in some big scheme to fleece the taxpayer. You have lost me through the relentless unsubstantiated accusations, cleverly disguised, yet accusations still that I am corrupt through my support and involvement with Local 799.

Justin Katz
Justin Katz
10 years ago

It’s hardly a new revelation that I don’t think public-sector workforces should be permitted to unionize.

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

“What do you suggest, Justin? Take away the right to vote when you join a union, or take away the right to join a union. Sounds like a place I’d want to live.”
Enact “right to work” to get rid of mandatory bargaining units or prohibit public employee unionization. Simple, common sense solutions, really. It’s worked wonders for other states. VA, where I live now, has right to work, very low corruption, balanced budgets, and excellent public services like education and police. Not a coincidence.

Mike Cappelli
Mike Cappelli
10 years ago

michael, If you seriously think that you are going to receive the money you think you are right now, you are going to be severely disappointed. The reason is not because people don’t want to give it to you, it is merely going to be impossible. The numbers just don’t work. You need to know that. The sooner you recognize that, the better prepared you will be. There are two ways out of the debilitating mess that has been created. One is bankruptcy, the other is to inflate our way out. Bankruptcy, while once considered impossible, is very much on the table being discussed. Not long ago, the mere discussion was heresy. That should tell you something. Still, I don’t think that will be the first option. I believe inflating our way out will be the way they choose. Who is they? The federal government, who will ultimately be called upon to back your pension. Yours and every other union/politician corrupted pension. You see michael, it’s been very easy for cowardly politicians to promise you a great pension when you retire in 20 years to grab your vote today. They knew damn well they won’t be around when the bill comes due. But, they always knew the bill would come due. That’s where we are today. Unbelievably, given the measly returns on investment that pension plans have returned over the last ten years, most of them still use a rate of return of 8+% or more. Do you realize that the S&P 500 average return is about zero for the last 12 years? Would you believe that the return for the Japanese stock market, the Nikkei 225, for 20 years (1990 – 2010) is about negative 75%; as in -75%? Their index went from 39,000 to 10,000. Using an implied… Read more »

michael
michael
10 years ago

I’m just a dumb fireman. They told me I could get out after 20 years with half my pay. I’ve got it in writing, backed by law. I’ll let them figure out the numbers.
And if it doesn’t work, I’ve got plan B. The C. Then D. I’m not worried.

David S
David S
10 years ago

“It’s hardly a new revelation that I don’t think public-sector workforces should be permitted to unionize.”
Posted by Justin Katz at February 5, 2011 10:47 AM
Sez it all folks. This grassroots thing, the tea party thing, this conception of the individual ( Do not tread on me)does not extend to people who work in the schools, libraries, fire stations, police stations. The key phrase is ‘should be permitted’. That indicates that you want to regulate and legislate workers. Period. You can put the public in front of it but that is what you are saying- regulate those public sector bastard workers. Allow regulation to affect the worker’s playing field.

Dan
Dan
10 years ago

Dan,
You said; “I know you have some kind of autistic obsession with numbers and rankings that goes beyond this issue and somehow relates everything back to Hawaii, but you can’t just vomit up some “study,” interpret it how you want, and expect me to be impressed.”
Nowhere in any of my comments have I mentioned the State of Hawaii except in the top 5 unionized states rankings.
The argument was how corrupt the State of Rhode is based on the unions and I was just pointing out the State of Rhode Island is not that corrupt as implied and unions play a smaller role in the state than some people think and I brought up 2 studies by two different entities that looked at available data 4 different ways and Rhode Island should get the “Sainthood Award”!
If you can’t stomach the results then that is you problem Dan. Go collect all the numbers and data and publish your own study to fit your agenda!
But now that you mention it Dan, its 82 degrees and sunny today, I swim in the ocean every day at free beaches with free parking, I only have to pay $300 property tax a year, no car property tax, no winter heating bills or purchasing winter clothing, shoveling snow and I am exempted from State of Hawaii income tax.

Ken
Ken
10 years ago

ADDEMDUM:
The above entry was not made by Dab but by Ken posted again.
Dan,
You said; “I know you have some kind of autistic obsession with numbers and rankings that goes beyond this issue and somehow relates everything back to Hawaii, but you can’t just vomit up some “study,” interpret it how you want, and expect me to be impressed.”
Nowhere in any of my comments have I mentioned the State of Hawaii except in the top 5 unionized states rankings.
The argument was how corrupt the State of Rhode is based on the unions and I was just pointing out the State of Rhode Island is not that corrupt as implied and unions play a smaller role in the state than some people think and I brought up 2 studies by two different entities that looked at available data 4 different ways and Rhode Island should get the “Sainthood Award”!
If you can’t stomach the results then that is you problem Dan. Go collect all the numbers and data and publish your own study to fit your agenda!
But now that you mention it Dan, its 82 degrees and sunny today, I swim in the ocean every day at free beaches with free parking, I only have to pay $300 property tax a year, no car property tax, no winter heating bills or purchasing winter clothing, shoveling snow and I am exempted from State of Hawaii income tax.

Phil
Phil
10 years ago

DavidS
Don’t you think it is funny that Justin who loathes what he calls identity politics slices and dices us into his four convenient categories;
1-The public employee union class
2-The entitled/welfare class
3-The elite ruling class
4-The rest of us who are paying dearly to support #s 1, 2 and 3
If anyone tried to divide the U.S. using race or income to drive a political argument Justin would go ballistic.
I also have to chuckle at how elastic the word “elite” has become. In nearly all other applications other than describing a politician it is used in the most positive sense. Talk about an elite military group and all the patriots go ramrod stiff and snap off crisp hand salutes just above their moist eyes. ( Except BobN whose hand involuntarily jerks straight away from the body and rises as if to attempt to block the rays of a rising sun) Businesses use the word in their names all the time. But only when it comes to politics and government is the word spit out with obvious disgust. Interesting, No?
Aloha, Ken.

joe bernstein
joe bernstein
10 years ago

The meaning of “elite”,like the meaning of “gay”has undergone some changes.
I think elite is frequently being used to describe self important hermetic cabals like the Sheldon Whitehouse/Lincoln Chafee social set or the academic circles at certain “leading”institutions.
Also the glitterati of the entertainment world,although most of those jerks are just show dogs for the real power players,since most of them are drug soaked human wreckage.Not all,but enough.
Outsiders certainly can attain power,but they are never totally free of the control nets thrown out by the “aristocracies”of family entitlement and intellectual dictatorship.

Phil
Phil
10 years ago

Joe B
Would you consider Bill Clinton and Barak Obama and Jimmy Carter members of the “elite” class?

triplerichard
triplerichard
10 years ago

Would the Bush family qualify as an elite group and does Rush Limbaugh fit the profile of a drug soaked human wreckage?

BobN
BobN
10 years ago

David, you are so full of BS. What we have today is regulation that requires public sector employees to be unionized. But it seems you are find with that regulation, because it fits your political agenda that of your political allies.
When de-unionization of the public sector puts the people, who do not have a concentration of money and paid political operatives such as the unions have, on a level playing field in negotiations with government employees, that will be the fair situation. What we have today is fundamentally unfair and systemically corrupt.
You can try to deny it, but your bleats are hollow and ever-more feeble.

joe bernstein
joe bernstein
10 years ago

Wow-good questions from the left.
let’s see-Clinton-NO-clear enough?Clinton came up from Redneck poverty and made it own his own.
I may not like the fact thaat he forced himself upon women,but otherwise,whether I agreed with him or not,he was a tough politician and probably the best campaigner we’ve seen.
He treated veterans well,maybe out of a sense of guilt at having been evasive.(WE’re the same exact age-the WAR loomed).
Obama-not elitist in any classical sense.
However,both of the above courted elitists.
Jimmy Carter-part of the southern elite.
Rush Limbaugh is a drug soaked a**hole.
WHEN have I referenced him?
I have had stronger painkillers than he did.I accepted them for EXACTLY as long as I really needed them and not an hour more.If anyone here wants to call me a liar on that,bring proof,there’s none.
Fact is,I’d sooner deal with pain than be woozy and constipated.
I went through 8 years of intermittent severe pain and vomiting with NO pain meds.
They finally found the problem and did major surgery to relieve it.
Trouble is,I’m so limited now,I can’t call anyone out for a swing.
So you leftists have your answer.And zero invective.

joe bernstein
joe bernstein
10 years ago

The Bushes-ELITISTIS.
McCain -NO.The military elite send their sons and daughters into battle-a totally different kind of elite-an elite willing to endure personal sacrifice-I really want this argument boys and girls.
BTW I’m from the “little people”who only went to war,put shoes on your feet,and taught reading.So there ya go Phil and David S.But no hard feelings.

Warrington Faust
Warrington Faust
10 years ago

Posted by David S:
“Sie ist anchorrising goofballs so voraussagbar. Justin wirft das rote Fleisch aus und Sie essen Burschen es auf. Vielen Dank Michael, aus Ihrem Grund Erwiderungen.”
“zwei Sachen, welche die Leute nie sehen sollten, sind die Herstellung von Gesetzen und die Herstellung von sausage” (I suppose sausage would be red meat)

Triplerichard
Triplerichard
10 years ago

Joe,no one really cares about your history with painkillers or if you are constipated or woozy. I once had a swollen testicles but only took required amount of painkillers. If anyone says different then prove it tough guy. I was more thinking about rushes addiction to his viagra medicine which it seems like you must be taking alot of as well.How else could you get to be such a hard on all the time.

David S
David S
10 years ago

Good one Warrington. I have made sausage, but I can not claim to know about the other.

joe bernstein
joe bernstein
10 years ago

3R-you sound like a complete a**hole,you know that?
Swollen testicles?Did you have worms?
I’ve never tried Viagra,because as of yet,I haven’t needed it.
Any other gems of wisdom?You liberals are so easy to get sputtering with idiotic rage.
You and David S are in a race to the bottom for sheer stupidity around here.

Triplerichard
Triplerichard
10 years ago

Thanks Joe right back at you. As for sputtering with idiotic rage that is exactly as I would have described your latest bunch if dispatches.seriously though why were you rambling on about painkillers and asking people to prove it.talk about sputtering and idiotic.

Phil
Phil
10 years ago

Obama-not elitist in any classical sense.
However,both of the above courted elitists.
That’s one of Joe’s pearls of wisdom. Thank you for answering, Joe. I wasn’t trying to make a partisan point because I easily could have included Nixon and Ford and Johnson. The point is that this new tea party inspired obsession with elitism is actually the same old anti intellectualism dressed up as populism. If you have experience and knowledge it means that you must be corrupt in their minds. Now Joe adds to this kind of attitude by writing that while one is not an “elitist” they are not in the clear if they have “courted” any at any time. ” Have you now or have you ever associated with any known “Elitists”? Have you ever attended any meetings where “Elitists” were present? Keep it up Joe and we’ll have to start calling you Joe McBernstein.

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